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Thread: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
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2009-10-04, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Yup, played too much magic and DnD this weekend and that always means the lines gets blurry. So anyways, lets say you really need to get a spell off. Either to rescue someone, kill someone, accomplish whatnot and all. And some snotty caster either uses Dispel or the counterspell to what your using. could you say, if you had another of that spell, or a Dispel to counter that persons counter?
Example:
PC Wizard: Casts fireball at a cults superweapon in attempt to save the world.
Cult Wizard: Succeeds on a Spellcraft check, casts Dispel Magic, makes roll.
PC Wizard: Succeeds on a Spellcraft check, casts Dispel Magic, makes roll.
Now, if memory serves, you HAVE to ready action to counterspell. And I think that it counts towards the number of spells you can counter a turn. But...what if you have extra actions a round? I don't think by rules this works but could it? Would you allow it.You live in your world and I'll live in mine. Invade my world and I'll go medieval on your subconscious tookus.
Do not mistake my inaction for fear or doubt, if I desire you to hang yourself by your own rope why should I hasten the inevitable?
Do not underestimate me, for I have not underestimated you...
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2009-10-04, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
i wouldn't allow it in general, except possibly if the first spellcaster has a quickened dispell at his disposal.
but i would allow a third spellcaster to counter the second one's counterspell.
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2009-10-04, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
no. you cannot counter spells with a duration of instantaneous.
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2009-10-04, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
I use black for sarcasm.
Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.
If you need me for something, please PM me about it. I am having difficulty keeping track of all my obligations.
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2009-10-04, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
I have a Ring of Greater Counterspells. If this ring doesn't give me dominion over counterspelling by letting me counterspell a counterspell, it's hardly "greater" in its counterspelling, now is it...
IMO, yes.
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2009-10-04, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-10-04, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Key bit there is "the EFFECT". You CAN stop the Fireball spell from being completed.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2009-10-04, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
I use black for sarcasm.
Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.
If you need me for something, please PM me about it. I am having difficulty keeping track of all my obligations.
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2009-10-04, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-10-04, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Ya. "Counter" and "dispel" are not the same word. Heck, it's even in a separate use of the spell.
Originally Posted by SRD
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2009-10-04, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-10-04, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
I would assume you could "counter" using a readied attack action. eg. Wizard A tries to cast fireball. Wizard B counterspells with fireball or dispel magic. Fighter A has a readied action and attacks Wizard B because he is casting a spell. If Fighter A hits and Wizard B fails his concentration check then his counterspell has been effectively stopped.
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2009-10-04, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Or you could always cast Last Word. That usually helps.
Personally I abuse Braids so no one but me has mana.
Wait........
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2009-10-04, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Oooooo, forgot about Last Word. Nice too, I'm more of a Force of Will and Undermine guy. Though I tried to make a DnD varient of Undermine too. Got denied. But that was for a good thing.
Looking at this, while I still like the idea, and want to impliment it, I'm thinking its a bit too complicated for most of my players.You live in your world and I'll live in mine. Invade my world and I'll go medieval on your subconscious tookus.
Do not mistake my inaction for fear or doubt, if I desire you to hang yourself by your own rope why should I hasten the inevitable?
Do not underestimate me, for I have not underestimated you...
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2009-10-04, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
In response to your Last Word, I cast Time Stop. All spells on the stack are removed from the game. Your uncounterability won't avail you. Same goes with Mindbreak Trap, btw. Of course, with the difference that Mindbreak Trap is infinitely more playable in real formats.
Anyways, I'd allow a third party to "counter the counterspell" by spellcrafting the Dispel Magic (as it's a use of Dispel Magic, it's still sorta "cast") and countering IT. I really don't see anything wrong with that; I just can't see the person casting the original spell countering back since that would involve casting two spells at the same time, which seems impossible. Though at the point where that would be relevant, I suppose seeming impossible is a small problem what with temporal manipulation and all.
I suppose, if Epic Counterspell is game, you shouldn't allow this though since it would just lead to two guys burning all their spell slots every time they face into countering each other's counters over the initial spell.Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-10-04 at 09:00 PM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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2009-10-04, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
You live in your world and I'll live in mine. Invade my world and I'll go medieval on your subconscious tookus.
Do not mistake my inaction for fear or doubt, if I desire you to hang yourself by your own rope why should I hasten the inevitable?
Do not underestimate me, for I have not underestimated you...
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2009-10-04, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Eh, it usually comes down to mana rather than availability...outside Legacy anyways where every played counterspell costs 1 or 0 mana. But yeah, mana is much like actions in D&D. It just so happens Epic Counterspell pulls the plug on that one.
So yeah, it'd be like two blue decks with infinite mana and half their library in hands going at it (let's say, High Tide combo going off against blue control playing Prosperity for whatever reason; maybe card availability).Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2009-10-04, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Epic Counterspell would still required readied actions, would it not? It's just an out of the box epic spell, right?
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2009-10-04, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Spoiler
"I counter your counterspell with a counterspell, to counter the counter that countered my countering that was countering the counter of the counter, that was countering my counter-counterspell, because you countered my counterspell that was counterspelling my Wind Drake."
Pretty much that.
I love Blue.Spoiler
All Avatars by Elder Tsofu!
Spoiler
Renditions By Vulion
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2009-10-04, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Wow, that takes me back the the table...I prefer Blue/black nill decks...or life-gain with trampling/lifelink Serra Avatar "I hit you for 12,000 damage, and gain 12,003 life...HAHAHAHAHA"
But back to topic, I'm gathering that once again I should stop trying to combine game mechanics from totally different games. Though Eldariel's multiple casters countering should be legal even by DnD RAW.You live in your world and I'll live in mine. Invade my world and I'll go medieval on your subconscious tookus.
Do not mistake my inaction for fear or doubt, if I desire you to hang yourself by your own rope why should I hasten the inevitable?
Do not underestimate me, for I have not underestimated you...
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2009-10-04, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Epic Counterspell is a feat, from Forgotten Realms no less. It is one of the reasons both Epic and Forgotten Realms have earned their "FUBAR" nicknames. It's really just 'cause...ah hell, read it for yourselves:
SpoilerEpic Counterspell [Epic]
You can counterspell any number of spells each round.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 30 ranks, Combat Reflexes, Improved Counterspell, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Reactive Counterspell.
Benefit: Any number of times per round, you can counterspell an opponent's spell even if you have not readied an action to do so. Such a counterspell does not count against your later actions for the round. You can even use this feat when flat-footed.
Normal: Without this feat, a character must ready an action in each round that she wishes to use a counterspell. A character with the Reactive Counterspell feat can counterspell an opponent's spell if she hasn't readied an action, but only once per turn and not when flat-footed.
Special: This feat should be considered a part of the epic bonus feat list for any class that grants access to spells of at least 6th level as a part of normal (nonepic) class progression (such as bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers and wizards), as well as any prestige class that grants a "+1 level of existing class" spell progression at all levels.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2009-10-04, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
I would say you can, provided you meet the usual requirements to counter the target spell.
Of course, it might sometimes be easier to just let the original spell go through, and cast another at the original target, eh?
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2009-10-04, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-10-04, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2009-10-04, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2009-10-04, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
We're not talking about "Dispelling", which is getting rid of in place spells, and has no timing rules.
We're talking about Counterspelling, which is different.
Provided you can find a way to get an immediate action, with the timing of an immediate action, on your turn, or cast a fireball without an immediate action, when it isn't, you could do this.
A cerebremancer wouldn't have too hard a time of it.
Schism
You do synchronicity.
Your Schism does synchronicity.
You have 2 readied actions, which need not be announced.
1st: Cast fireball on X.
Response: Counterspell with dispel magic.
2nd: Use belt of battle for a standard action
Ready to counter
Counter dispel magic with dispel magic.Last edited by PhoenixRivers; 2009-10-04 at 10:36 PM.
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2009-10-04, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
If they have Dispel Magic (or other appropriate counter) quickened, I would allow two concentration checks. The first one would check to see if they lose track of the first spell being cast from the distraction of thinking about a counterspell, and the second is to see if they succeed in casting the quickened counter while distracted by trying to also cast the first spell. DC 11 + spell level + counterspell level (+4 for being quickened) for both.
If the spell and counterspell do not share components (ie V, S, M), the player might get a bonus, but there is a conflict then maybe a penalty depending on severity.
You might want to work out ahead of time exactly how your PC's activate their quickened spells (a gesture? a word? crushing the material component?).Last edited by Willis888; 2009-10-04 at 11:01 PM.
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2009-10-04, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-10-04, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
In addition, there are prevention methods. Ring of enduring arcana, Caster Level boosting, etc.
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2009-10-04, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you Counter a Counterspell?
RAW, probably not. I would allow it if you had an appropriate swift-action spell or, depending on the verbiage, an item of counterspelling.
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