Sharing a wand for fun and profit

[Thespianus]

I've read up on how to make a log move at supersonic speeds by having a long line of commoners all readying an action to move the log as soon as the guy to his right moves the log, etc.

It got me thinking: How about 50 level 1 wizards (or UMD-enabled characters) in a ring, where one pulls out a wand of , say, Magic Missile, and everyone else readies an action to grab the wand and launch a magic missile at the creature in the middle of the ring.

That would result in 50 Magic Missiles launched at the target per round, without having to spend more than 750 gp on a wand. :-D

In a less insane scenario, would this work as a party tactic? Say the Rogue and the Wizard wants to blow up the BBEG with the Cool Spell(tm) in the Rod/Staff/Wand, the Rogue goes first, blasts the BBEG, and allows the Wizard to grab the wand after the spell has been launched, to launch a second spell from the wand in the same round?

If nothing else, it would be an AMAZING way to create LOTS of wood with a Wand of Blockade(Complete Scoundrel) , or Grease up a really large area. :)

Edit: Granted, you can do the same thing with 50 separate wands of Blockade, but this seems more fun :)

[Rixx]

Grabbing the wand would be a move action, and you can't prepare both a move action (grabbing the wand) and a standard action (activating it). Sorry! Nice idea, though.

[Thespianus]

Grabbing the wand would be a move action, and you can't prepare both a move action (grabbing the wand) and a standard action (activating it). Sorry! Nice idea, though.

Oh dang. :(

Ok, thanks! :)

[ShadowFighter15]

Just for the two-person variant; what if the wizard doesn't take it out of the rogue's hand? Just grabs it enough to trigger it (which with command-word items would probably mean holding it anywhere)? It's been a while since I've read the readied action rules, but could you ready a swift action and a standard action?

[Jack_Simth]

Grabbing the wand would be a move action, and you can't prepare both a move action (grabbing the wand) and a standard action (activating it). Sorry! Nice idea, though.

If that's your only objection, it works with Delaying, rather than Readying, though. And with Delaying, you get to choose where in the initiative lineup you go.

[Thespianus]

Just for the two-person variant; what if the wizard doesn't take it out of the rogue's hand? Just grabs it enough to trigger it (which with command-word items would probably mean holding it anywhere)? It's been a while since I've read the readied action rules, but could you ready a swift action and a standard action?

No, I think just one of them. :)

[Ceaon]

They could just all delay, though, using the same wand 50 times in 6 seconds.

Round 1: all wizards delay to the lowest of their IT counts.
Wizard 1: magic missile, move action: give wand to next wizard.
Wizards 2-49: do what Wizard 1 did.
Wizard 50: magic missile, move action: draw a new wand.

Next round: repeat.

Cool trick, no sane DM would allow it, awesome stuff.

[Tyndmyr]

I have actually used this tactic in game, with a wand of clw. Just pass it among players that need healing. There are obvious disadvantages though, like how close you have to be to pull it off.

Also, it burns charges like candy.

[Thespianus]

They could just all delay, though, using the same wand 50 times in 6 seconds.

Ah, Delay would do it, rather than Ready. Thanks! :)

Cool trick, no sane DM would allow it, awesome stuff.

Then all that's required is to find fun spells to stick in a wand that make this trick even more crazy. :)

[ericgrau]

Burning hands decorative fountain display.
Ghost sound high pitched singing voice, shatter all glasses in a 35x35 foot area.

[Kelpstrand]

It's a move action to accept the wand from someone else, and to pass it to someone else.

You don't get a standard and two move actions. So you are still not capable of doing it with delay either.

[Tyndmyr]

You can take an item from someone else(provided it's not opposed) as a move action, no?

heck, you can pick up an item off the ground as a move action, and dropping is a free action. If anything, taking it from their hand should take less time.

[Random832]

You can take an item from someone else(provided it's not opposed) as a move action, no?

heck, you can pick up an item off the ground as a move action, and dropping is a free action. If anything, taking it from their hand should take less time.

Those "if anything" arguments don't work when you're already abusing physics with strict RAW interpretations.

[Tyndmyr]

Then, if you prefer, drop and pick up the wand. Same end result, still legal.

[Roderick_BR]

Grabbing the wand would be a move action, and you can't prepare both a move action (grabbing the wand) and a standard action (activating it). Sorry! Nice idea, though.

In fact, you can. You can do a move action and a standard action in one round. Where does it say you can't? What you can't do is a move-like and a full-round action.
Everyone needs to have quickdraw to pick something up as a move-action, though, else picking it up is a standard action.

Hmm... nice idea for a barrage of attacks. Cheaper than everyone having his own wand. Way more useful than the log that loses all it's supersonic speed the instant it stops moving to be tossed by the last commoner in line

[Eloel]

In fact, you can. You can do a move action and a standard action in one round. Where does it say you can't? What you can't do is a move-like and a full-round action.
Everyone needs to have quickdraw to pick something up as a move-action, though, else picking it up is a standard action.

Hmm... nice idea for a barrage of attacks. Cheaper than everyone having his own wand. Way more useful than the log that loses all it's supersonic speed the instant it stops moving to be tossed by the last commoner in line

Grabbing the wand would be a move action, and you can't prepare both a move action (grabbing the wand) and a standard action (activating it). Sorry! Nice idea, though.

I believe Rixx thought it had to be readied, which was later shot down as it didn't have to be readied. His sentence is still 100% correct.

[Curmudgeon]

Just for the two-person variant; what if the wizard doesn't take it out of the rogue's hand? Just grabs it enough to trigger it (which with command-word items would probably mean holding it anywhere)?

Wands aren't command word items; they're spell trigger items. While you use a word as part of triggering the spell, the mechanism isn't clear.

Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell.

So it's up to DM interpretation to decide if that knowledge about how to use a wand precludes having other hands on it.

Everyone needs to have quickdraw to pick something up as a move-action, though, else picking it up is a standard action.

Sorry, wrong. Pick up an item is already a move action.

The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it.

That's probably going to impose a lot of overhead in this multi-user wand scenario, with a whole lot of Identify spells. After all, that's how you the user determine what spell is in a wand. Hearing it from someone else isn't determining it.

[Thespianus]

That's probably going to impose a lot of overhead in this multi-user wand scenario, with a whole lot of Identify spells. After all, that's how you the user determine what spell is in a wand. Hearing it from someone else isn't determining it.

So Clerics without the Magic domain can never find out how to use a wand of CLW? Since they don't have Identify, they can never use it?

[tyckspoon]

That's probably going to impose a lot of overhead in this multi-user wand scenario, with a whole lot of Identify spells. After all, that's how you the user determine what spell is in a wand. Hearing it from someone else isn't determining it.

I'm not sure how you would come to this conclusion, assuming the item is built for easiest identification. If the wand has "Magic Missile" and a command word engraved on the side and the guy before you just fired a Magic Missile from it while saying that command word.. I think it is pretty well determined that it is, in fact, a wand of Magic Missile, and what the command word is. Even if you are going to play silly buggers with dictionary definitions on a non-game-defined term.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not sure how you would come to this conclusion, assuming the item is built for easiest identification. If the wand has "Magic Missile" and a command word engraved on the side

Let's stop right there, shall we?

• There's no reason to assume that wands are "built for easiest identification", especially when the rules state you can't use them at all until you've determined the spell contained inside.

  The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it.

• Spell trigger items don't have "command words". While you do need to speak a word as part of the trigger, it's quite reasonable to assume that all spell trigger items use exactly the same word.

  No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken.

It's the special knowledge of spellcasting that lets you trigger the spell once you've identified it; the word is just formulaic.

[tyckspoon]

Let's stop right there, shall we?[LIST][*]There's no reason to assume that wands are "built for easiest identification", especially when the rules state you can't use them at all until you've determined the spell contained inside.

I assumed it would be built for easy identification because the thread posited a situation where multiple people would be attempting to use the same wand. In such a situation, the wand's original owner would know what the wand was. And then everybody else would know what the wand was because they saw him use it even if they couldn't tell from the wand itself. There is no requirement for every single person to Identify the wand in order to figure out what spell it casts in this situation.

[woodenbandman]

Use a very high Sleight of Hand check to lift it as a free action.

[Curmudgeon]

And then everybody else would know what the wand was because they saw him use it

I'm afraid the rules don't allow for spell identification in such circumstances. To Identify a Spell Being Cast:

Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.)

But nobody's casting the spell; instead, they're triggering it. Seeing somebody trigger a wand, by RAW, doesn't provide any clues as to the spell contained therein.

[tyckspoon]

You're seriously going to tell me that when this happens:
Wizard one pulls a wand, points it at a target, and says a word. A Magic Missile comes out of the wand and hits the target he pointed at.

49 other Wizards can't tell that wand casts Magic Missile?

[Claudius Maximus]

I'm pretty sure these 50 wizards are in cahoots, so all you have to do is tell them that it's a wand of Magic Missile beforehand. If you're going through the trouble of getting them together, you should probably make that clear anyway.

[Makensha]

You could also pass the wand around pre battle and have everyone identfy it...

[Tyndmyr]

You seriously can't identify spells cast via an item the way you could identify one cast from the players usual spell pool?

That seems....counter intuitive. And would seem to mean that anyone without an identify spell readied could not use a wand at all. Yes, for this example, they could all pre-identify this, but this particular interpretation would divide triggered and cast magical effects...leaving triggered effects immune to spellcraft, counterspells, etc. It'd be very odd indeed.

A more likely explanation is that Identify is only necessary to determine the command word(Since that's the explanation of what you get by using the Identify spell on a magic item). If the command word is freely shared, there is no need to Identify, then.

[Curmudgeon]

You're seriously going to tell me that when this happens:
Wizard one pulls a wand, points it at a target, and says a word. A Magic Missile comes out of the wand and hits the target he pointed at.

49 other Wizards can't tell that wand casts Magic Missile?

Nope. All they know is that the guy pulls out a wand and says the spell trigger word. There aren't even any distinguishing colors or sounds from that spell's description, so Spot and Listen aren't going to help. The guy who triggered the wand has the special knowledge of spellcasting, so he knows what's going on. The fact that it's a Magic Missile effect isn't apparent to anybody else -- not even the enemy on the receiving end. It's just damage, presumably from some magical source.

[Random832]

And then everybody else would know what the wand was because they saw him use it

That's a DC16 spellcraft check.

EDIT: which I see some people are saying you don't get. Whatever. A wizard who in fact _knows_ a spell (not just has it on their list) should be able to use it just by being told what spell it is.

"determine" has no definition in RAW, so by default it's anything that would give you IC knowledge of the fact (including being told)

[Foryn Gilnith]

Nope. All they know is that the guy pulls out a wand and says the spell trigger word. There aren't even any distinguishing colors or sounds from that spell's description, so Spot and Listen aren't going to help.

The spell trigger word, maybe?

The fact that it's a Magic Missile effect isn't apparent to anybody else -- not even the enemy on the receiving end.

It's a magic missile. It produces a visible missile, of the type that a Magic Missile spell would produce. You don't get Invisible Spell free on all wands.