Summoning = mind-affecting bypass

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Ok, was just thinking, with some of these summoning spells, the ones that the creature does it's best to obey you, isn't that in some way a compulsion? In fact, for what I'm looking at Summon Nature's Ally, you could command them to do things totally out of alignment. Basically, it's even more powerful than dominate.

In fact, it even works on those immune to that sort of thing.

What's to stop you from summoning, telling them to accept your command, and then putting a long-term spell on them, so that when they reappear back in their own land they will then try to find you in their true form and you have a much longer term servant?

[Gralamin]

Ok, was just thinking, with some of these summoning spells, the ones that the creature does it's best to obey you, isn't that in some way a compulsion? In fact, for what I'm looking at Summon Nature's Ally, you could command them to do things totally out of alignment. Basically, it's even more powerful than dominate.

In fact, it even works on those immune to that sort of thing.

What's to stop you from summoning, telling them to accept your command, and then putting a long-term spell on them, so that when they reappear back in their own land they will then try to find you in their true form and you have a much longer term servant?

Nothing. This is pretty much the key to Mindraping Solars.

[Akal Saris]

Well, the DM would probably involve powerful players from those creatures' home plane who wanted to know why their servant suddenly left them. There's a lot of ways to make an interesting subplot out of it really.

[Gan The Grey]

Someone else will have to prove me right or wrong on this one, cuz I can't remember where I saw it. And I'm sleepy.

From what I remember, summoning spells are only quasi-real. The creature you summon is constructed from bits of the Plane of Shadow, kinda like those shadow evocation spells. They don't really exist until you summon them. I always thought of the summon spells as a template that is filled with magical energy upon completion of the spell, generating a semi-real creature that serves your will simply because it is an extension of your magical power. However, the template restricts your control over them (i.e. animals don't really understand common) so it isn't entirely perfect.

Am I crazy? Did I make this up? I know in 2nd edition, you were actually summoning something that existed somewhere else in the multiverse, but I thought that change in 3.x.

EDIT Isn't this the difference between SUMMONING and CALLING?

[lord_khaine]

You are not crazy, thats pretty much the key difference between summoning and calling.

This is why you cant start mindraping solars before you can cast Gate.

[SparkMandriller]

Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

Looks like you get the real thing to me. You might be thinking of (Creation) spells, those make objects/creatures outta magic, and they cease to exist when the spell ends.

[PhoenixRivers]

Looks like you get the real thing to me. You might be thinking of (Creation) spells, those make objects/creatures outta magic, and they cease to exist when the spell ends.

Unless they're instantaneous duration.

Summoning locks out other summons, and keeps the summoned from actually dying.

Calling actually brings creatures through, in a potentially long term and uncontrolled manner.

It's hard to mindrape solars before Gate because:

1) Mindrape is also 9th level.
2) No WotC printed effect can summon a solar.

[Fixer]

I am not familiar with the RAW, but when I GM I make summons as "you have pulled X from plane Y and anything that happens to it while you have control over it disappears when it returns". Sort of like the summoning spell creating a bubble around the summoned creature. As long as it is around you it can be affected as normal, but the moment the summons ends *all* effects disappear when it returns (even death, but that creature cannot be re-summoned for 24 hours because it refuses to be summoned).

[JeenLeen]

Someone else will have to prove me right or wrong on this one, cuz I can't remember where I saw it. And I'm sleepy.

From what I remember, summoning spells are only quasi-real. The creature you summon is constructed from bits of the Plane of Shadow, kinda like those shadow evocation spells. They don't really exist until you summon them. I always thought of the summon spells as a template that is filled with magical energy upon completion of the spell, generating a semi-real creature that serves your will simply because it is an extension of your magical power. However, the template restricts your control over them (i.e. animals don't really understand common) so it isn't entirely perfect.

Am I crazy? Did I make this up? I know in 2nd edition, you were actually summoning something that existed somewhere else in the multiverse, but I thought that change in 3.x.

EDIT Isn't this the difference between SUMMONING and CALLING?

I think that might be what happens if you create a summon using Shadow Conjuration or similiar spells.

But, as I see it and as said above, a summon is an actual denizen of its plane, only protected from actual death by the summoning magic. I imagine if its immune to Mind-affecting by its nature, though, what you are asking about would not work since it couldn't drop its immunity to Mind-affecting and thus wouldn't follow your command after the summon.

It would make sense to assume there is some protection against negative status ailments or mental attacks: for example, you wouldn't think a poisoned summon who goes back to its plane dies of the poison just because the summon spell is no longer protecting it. I would think Mindrape is undone, although I admit I don't see anything official by RAW.

[Oslecamo]

What's to stop you from summoning, telling them to accept your command, and then putting a long-term spell on them, so that when they reappear back in their own land they will then try to find you in their true form and you have a much longer term servant?

First, most creatures cannot simply drop their mind-immunity spells. They'll follow your orders to best of coman, but they still can't do something they normally couldn't.

Second, summoned creatures who go back to their planes get completely healed of all problems. Heck they even get back to life if they were fragged.

[Akal Saris]

It's probably a DM-dependent question in the end.

[AirTony7]

I always though of summon spells as summoning an astral projection of the creature hence why when they die they don't really die and anything affecting them goes away when the duration ends.

[Gan The Grey]

I always though of summon spells as summoning an astral projection of the creature hence why when they die they don't really die and anything affecting them goes away when the duration ends.

I like this. This seems to fit more with the flavor of the text.