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2009-10-06, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
So making a divine Gish
But Not CLeric or Core Paladin lvls.
How would you go about it?
As much psudo arcane magic as possible.
by wich i mean things people think are arcane spells, but can be cast divine (ie almo0st all of them if you archivist out the domains).
What PrC's are there that advance divine casting, ones that are inteneded for paladins?There is nothing on earth that we share; it is either Valjean or Javert!
"A wizard can in fact be thought of the custodian to a familiar, a terrifying beast that charges its foes, slashing them to shreds while delivering their master's touch spells and bestowing upon their masters incredible bonuses to their hp or skill checks. A wizard is nearly powerless without one."
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2009-10-06, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Crusader/Ur-Priest/RKV
Unless I misunderstood you, your post was rather unclear. Are you saying you want no Paladin, or that you want to make a Paladin?
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2009-10-06, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
I believe he wants a divine gish, that is not a paladin or cleric, and he wants a PrC that advances divine spells, that would fit a paladin theme.
I can't think of anything, that is like a paladin with more casting.
I suppose a favored soul would be like a divine magic user, essentially a divine sorcerer. You could make it a favored soul of whatever diety, and then use the Prc Church Inquisitor to advance divine spell casting. At least for the first two levels.
Hospitaler gives you armor, and weapon proficiencies and advances your casting on the second level. Sort of a gish I suppose. Also gives you the lay on hands ability, for that paladin like class.
I don't know if this helps.Last edited by HereticNox; 2009-10-06 at 08:38 AM.
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2009-10-06, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Do you want to avoid casters such as Favored Soul, Shugenja, and Spirit Shaman* and other 'spiritual' casters?
Do you need to be good? And what level of optimization is preferred/allowed, or is this any concept regardless of power?
*I forget if this is arcane or divine
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2009-10-06, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls,
A dm i know is planning a game with no arcane casters, not as players.
just to prove that he is not limmiting anything, i want to make a divine castere that can do anything a wizard can.
Then to add to the chalange, no cleric. and make a gish.
PrC paladin is more a way of advancing divine casting.
it's a gish PrC.
Actually, so is PrC ranger.
a Archivist qualifies for both.
Admittedly both are 50% casting.
But they are also full BaB, and provenly decent classesLast edited by oxinabox; 2009-10-06 at 08:48 AM.
There is nothing on earth that we share; it is either Valjean or Javert!
"A wizard can in fact be thought of the custodian to a familiar, a terrifying beast that charges its foes, slashing them to shreds while delivering their master's touch spells and bestowing upon their masters incredible bonuses to their hp or skill checks. A wizard is nearly powerless without one."
Need to find a God? or Spell or Feat?
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2009-10-06, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Bracada
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Archivist with Divine Powah. Done.
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2009-10-06, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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2009-10-06, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Cleric with tons of extra domains and tons of Domain Spontaneity. Contemplative, Sovereign Speaker, Chruch Inquisitor, Divine Oracle...
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2009-10-06, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
favored soul/prestige paladin/anything you like
done.
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2009-10-06, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Not enough win here.
Hexblade 2/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Crusader 2/Ur-Priest 4/RKV 10
You said no Core Paladin levels, and UA isn't Core (despite being SRD material).
The alternate:
Teifling Incarnate 6/Ur-Priest 2/Contemplative 1/Reflavored Sapphire Hierarch 10/Divine Oracle 1
The latter is tricky: DMM Persist on Divine Power, Incarnum Apothesis, and a few other spells for Full BAB.
Fact: Teifling Incarnate substitution levels give you the skill and save requirements for Ur-Priest. In fact, said sub levels are the only base-class method of entering Ur-Priest without multiclassing or waiting until your saves are high enough through natural progression.
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2009-10-06, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Doesn't Savage Bard work for Ur-Priest?
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2009-10-06, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Surprised nobody has said Druid yet, especially since they get several arcane spells.
Natural Spell and Wildshape give you your gishiness.
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2009-10-06, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Making a character to prove the DM wrong never seems to end up well. Did you actually talk to him about what he's trying to do or are you just assuming things?
I was going to add Druid 20 to the list, but then someone else did already.
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2009-10-06, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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2009-10-06, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Really, I would have thought that Savage Bard would be more apparent than a racial subclass. But MoI does encourage full mastery of the material.
From my reading of oxinabox, he's not trying to prove the DM wrong. The DM banned arcane casters (a move which he shows no signs of disagreeing with) and he wants to prove that this won't limit a party. Taking up the traditionally arcane role with thw options available to him.
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2009-10-06, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
I suppose. The thing about banning arcanists is that you still have your divine tier 1/2's who can do everything just fine. Not exactly the same, but to the same overwhelming level, which is why I called into question the DM's motives in banning the arcanists.
I wouldn't say he's trying to take a traditional arcanist role, since gishes are relatively rare, and the core divine casters do it straight out of the box.
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2009-10-06, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
You can call me Draz.
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2009-10-06, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
He's banning arcanists for plot reasons.
Unfortunatle PrC paladin requires turn undead.
So 1 lvl of Cleric, (get some nice domain powers)
stack of archievist and a little fighter.
PrC palidin 3, PrC ranger x
The paladin PrC that is for shooting things with bows from horses.
Have i lost enough caster lvls yet?
Or Sacred fist/monk it up.There is nothing on earth that we share; it is either Valjean or Javert!
"A wizard can in fact be thought of the custodian to a familiar, a terrifying beast that charges its foes, slashing them to shreds while delivering their master's touch spells and bestowing upon their masters incredible bonuses to their hp or skill checks. A wizard is nearly powerless without one."
Need to find a God? or Spell or Feat?
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2009-10-06, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls,
Well, Archivist is the obvious answer to that. The Archivist is just a Divine Wizard with class features.
Of course, I suspect your DM won't be handing out Divine Wizard Scrolls much, either...
Stupid question, though: Why, when your DM comes up with a restriction like that, do you feel the need to "stick it to him" and finding a loophole? If you aren't interested in playing a non-arcane game, you should just tell him, otherwise you should just play the game with an appropriate and fitting character and let your DM do his thing. The passive-aggressive "I'm going to beat you at your own game" schtick is just... I dunno. Personally, were I the DM, I'd be pretty annoyed by it.
I find the thought of a game where all arcanists are NPCs (and presumably the bad guys) pretty interesting, actually, despite my favoring of arcana.Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2009-10-06 at 06:41 PM.
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2009-10-06, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Last edited by Claudius Maximus; 2009-10-06 at 06:56 PM.
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2009-10-06, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
RKWRKV requires Wee Jas Worship. Wee Jas takes evil worshippers. Ur-Priest does not require atheism, merely no divine spellcasting ability. Just use RKV to advance Ur-Priest and you're set.
Originally Posted by Tome of BattleOriginally Posted by Complete DivineLast edited by Foryn Gilnith; 2009-10-06 at 07:03 PM.
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2009-10-06, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
For CHA based goodness, I'd recommend Favored Soul 6/Knight of the Raven X. If you also want to pick up all martial weapons without losing a caster level, grab a level of Dragonslayer.
If you're going for a Paladin theme, you can taylor your spell selection to be as Paladinesque or arcanish as you like.
KotR is from the module EtCR, so the DM may or may not allow it. See here for more ideas.Last edited by Thurbane; 2009-10-06 at 08:40 PM.
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2009-10-06, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Favored Soul X/Crusader 10-X/Kuby Knight Vindicator 10. decide how much you want spellcasting versus maneuvers to decide how many levels of each.
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2009-10-06, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Stupid question, though: Why, when your DM comes up with a restriction like that, do you feel the need to "stick it to him" and finding a loophole? If you aren't interested in playing a non-arcane game, you should just tell him, otherwise you should just play the game with an appropriate and fitting character and let your DM do his thing. The passive-aggressive "I'm going to beat you at your own game" schtick is just... I dunno. Personally, were I the DM, I'd be pretty annoyed by it.
well he is (in a differnent game), but I don' think I'm playing in this game.
i'm just proving a point.
I like the UrPriest/ vindicator method.
Great point about the archievist and the scrolls.
I guess making a Gish contradicts my point of making an arcanist, as most divines are gish-ish, even archivist (medium armor prof.) to some small extent.There is nothing on earth that we share; it is either Valjean or Javert!
"A wizard can in fact be thought of the custodian to a familiar, a terrifying beast that charges its foes, slashing them to shreds while delivering their master's touch spells and bestowing upon their masters incredible bonuses to their hp or skill checks. A wizard is nearly powerless without one."
Need to find a God? or Spell or Feat?
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2009-10-07, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
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2009-10-07, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
wait, Ur priest only gains cleric list.
No domains, can't make anything psudo arcane out of thatThere is nothing on earth that we share; it is either Valjean or Javert!
"A wizard can in fact be thought of the custodian to a familiar, a terrifying beast that charges its foes, slashing them to shreds while delivering their master's touch spells and bestowing upon their masters incredible bonuses to their hp or skill checks. A wizard is nearly powerless without one."
Need to find a God? or Spell or Feat?
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2009-10-07, 02:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
9th level spellcasting by 15th is hardly "not anything".
Anyway, what point are you proving? I mean, you said he was banning arcane casters for storyline reasons, not balance reasons... What does showing that divine casters can be broken too do for you?
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2009-10-07, 03:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
I'm not proving brokeness.
Divine metamagic is one of the most broken things out, esp in campaigns with almost no undead.
I'm proving that magic that looks and feels just like arcane is still availabe in the divine lists.
Again, i shouoldn't be trying to build a gish.
Is there a way to get more domains into a cleric?There is nothing on earth that we share; it is either Valjean or Javert!
"A wizard can in fact be thought of the custodian to a familiar, a terrifying beast that charges its foes, slashing them to shreds while delivering their master's touch spells and bestowing upon their masters incredible bonuses to their hp or skill checks. A wizard is nearly powerless without one."
Need to find a God? or Spell or Feat?
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2009-10-07, 03:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Contemplative can get more domains.
Ur-Priest can't be a RKV because Ur-Priests have spurned the gods. The moment you qualify for RKV's belief requirement is the moment you stop getting the benefits of the Ur-Priest class.
Personally, I'd suggest Monk/Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist, or just go straight Druid with Natural Spell and Maximized Quillblasts.Half-Orc Scout by Magioth
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2009-10-07, 04:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only
Is there any way you could work in Killer Gnome cheese? Shadowcraft Mage doesn't require you cast arcane spells, only 3 different illusion spells, and the cleric list has plenty of illusion spells (Disguise Self for one.). It even has Skull of Secrets, a 4th level Illusion(Shadow) spell that precisely qualifies a 4th level Ur-Priest to be a Shadowcraft Mage.
Of course, you'd need to figure out some way to get Silent image (or another image spell) on your spell list. I dunno if you could do the shadow miracles, as you'd need to somehow add Miracle to the Sor/Wiz spell list. All I can think of is getting a warlock to scribe miracle to a scroll, and having a wizard copy that spell permanently into a spellbook so you could use some type of 9th level Anyspell. That probably still won't put it on the Sor/Wiz list.
Any ideas?