Making a "Pit Fighter" (3.5 DnD)

[AtwasAwamps]

So I had a weird idea.

I kind of want to create a character based around this concept:

A former monk, turned pit-fighter. Basically, an unarmed fighter who has his roots in the style/balance form of martial arts that a emulates, but who turned away from the path of the monk and basically became a participant in bloodsports.

I’d like to focus mostly on the physical aspect of his abilities…IE, I’d prefer to avoid making him a crazy psionic monk/wacky gish-master, at least before level 10 or so. What I personally am thinking of is Monk 4/Fighter 6/ ???, picking up plenty of bonus feats and so on and so forth. I’m wondering how you guys would design something like this. Note that I’m not trying to optimize, just trying to create a bare-knuckle fighter with a pit fighter/underground boxing ring/red card bout feel to him.

What would YOU do? Would this even be viable to you?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Personally? Monk 2/Warblade X. Ask for DM fiat to trade in White Raven or something for Setting Sun, then pick up Setting Sun and Iron Heart maneuvers (powerful strikes and grappling moves).

[arguskos]

Well... if you don't mind using natural weapons, and some setting-specific material, the Thayan Gladiator is right up your alley. Champions of Ruin, check it out.

It makes you into a very strong natural weapon fighter. I personally like entering it with Minotaur, cause I like minotaurs.

[Medic]

Barbarian 4 / FoF 3

Focus on Con -

Rage + Feral Stance = +4 STR/DEX/CON, +2 Will saves

[Myrmex]

Step 1. Get a portable hole.
Step 2. Fight in it.

[JellyPooga]

"Brawler" style Pit Fighter you say?

Here's the recipe...

Ingredients
1) Stupid High Str
2) Very good Dex
3) Con score to taste (some like a lot, others can do without)
4) Mental Ability scores with whatever you got left.
5) Exotic Melee Weaponry. For this purpose "Exotic" means anything but the usual suspects of Swords, Axes, Clubs and Spears. In your particular case it means Spiked Gauntlets and Punch Daggers. If you're using Dungeonscape it also means Elbow and Knee Blades and possibly Bladed Boots too.
6) Scorpions Grasp Feat
7) Class Levels: Monk; at least 2 (no more than 6), Barbarian; up to about 4, Reaping Mauler 5

Go for the Grapple. Ignore people that say it's ultimately pointless because of Freedom of Movement...any DM that gives every one of your opponents access to that particular spell effect isn't worth playing for. Grapple can be a highly effective method of immobilising your opponent and by using only light weapons (that you can't be disrmed of) in conjunction with Scorpions Grasp you can attack without penalty.

The advantage of using weapons over unarmed strikes is twofold: Firstly, you can enchant a weapon more cheaply and with more diversity than you can your unarmed strike. Secondly, it's a style thing. Sure, you could just go down the unarmed only route, but a Pit Fighter must win the crowd as much as the fights and having a variety of brutal weapons that kill slowly is more of a crowd pleaser than the one-shot kill from a sword or axe.

If you really want, use Special Monk Weapons instead of the gauntlets/punch daggs as you can use your Flurry of Blows with them...to put it in perspective, by making an FoB in a grapple you get an extra attack at -2 to hit whilst your opponent is A) denied his Dex to AC and B) having to attack you at -4 to hit.

If you really want to go to town stylistically, take Two Weapon Fighting as well (though you might want to dip some Fighter for Bonus Feats if you do this), though you'll really have to pump your Str to get your Attack Bonus good enough if you go down that route.

[AtwasAwamps]

Jelly, your idea is closest to what I had in mind...puts me in mind of a very brutal, limb-breaking fighter. I had no familiarity with reaping mauler, and looking at it, it's beautiful and exactly what I want. Some notes:

1) According to the PHB, the monk unarmed strike counts as a natural and manufactured weapon. What are the limitation on enchanting there that I'm not seeing? Also, stylistically, I envisioned a pancration (sp?) style fighter, not relying on extra weapons, though your vision works just as well. Flavor oriented, certainly. I was personally thinking of tossing in Superior Unarmed Strike (though I do not have the book) and Improved Natural Weapons, though a glance at Reaping Mauler means I can cut out SUS, certainly!

2) Why Barb over Fighter? I can see the higher hit dice and improved speed as good reasons, but what am I missing? I feel like with a build like this, you want to have a couple extra feats to cover your options and that fighter grants you access to them.

[Longcat]

Try Unarmed Swordsage from ToB.

[Starbuck_II]

2) Why Barb over Fighter? I can see the higher hit dice and improved speed as good reasons, but what am I missing? I feel like with a build like this, you want to have a couple extra feats to cover your options and that fighter grants you access to them.

Feats aren't as strong as class features usually.

[AtwasAwamps]

Feats aren't as strong as class features usually.

True, and studying Barb, I can see why it would be the most powerful addition to this build. Not sure its what I would go with regarding flavor, but definitely the strongest option.

[ericgrau]

1)... for the purpose of spells. Not permanent crafting enchantments.

2) Rage adds strength. Otherwise ya feats seem more useful than uncanny dodge and trap sense for your purposes, assuming you can use all those feats. Maybe get both clases?

The monk generally does more grapple damage because he doesn't get the -4 penalty to hit with a weapon. Get around that and the advantage disappears. At very high levels someone who focuses on a light weapon might get more damage per hit (but still has the -4), and someone whose main weapon is armor spikes can get rid of the -4 too.

[Telonius]

I don't have the books in front of me at the moment, but I seem to remember a PrC called "Reaping Mauler" that might be useful.

EDIT: That'll teach me not to do a search before posting ... ack.

[AtwasAwamps]

1)... for the purpose of spells. Not permanent crafting enchantments.

D'oh! Fair enough. And Telonius, Reaping Mauler was mentioned in Jelly's build and you are correct, it's perfect...though the name is odd.

EDIT: I see you caught yourself =P

Double Edit: Well, I figured I could use normal feats to grab the required things I need and use fighter feats to fill up on extra things that could be nasty, such as Two Weapon Fighting (which Jelly does mention, along with fighter dipping) or heck, just for hilarity's sake, give me enough wiggle room to somehow take leaping attack or jumping kick (waaa-cha!), though I haven't done the planning or anything.

Potentially right now I'm looking at something like monk 4, fighter 6, Reaping Mauler X.

[JellyPooga]

Reasons to take Barbarian over Fighter:

1)Uncanny Dodge. The last thing you want to do is let your opponent get the drop on you, but if he does, you want to survive whatever it is he throws at you. Uncanny Dodge helps here.

2)Rage. +4 Str = +2 Grapple, +2 To Hit and +2 Damage (per hit). It's available much quicker than a +4 Enhancement Bonus to Str and stacks with it when you do get one. This goes towards making up for the BAB you lost as a Monk.

3) d12 HD. After levels of Monk, your HP will have suffered slightly. By taking Monk 4 and Barb 4, your average HP is the same as a Fighter 8. Monk + Fighter would put you a few HP behind the curve.

Fighter has it's place, but for me in this build, it's as a 2 level dip at most. The only reason to take Fighter any further than 2 is if you're aiming at some of the Weapon Mastery feats from PHBII, but they're generally not worth the investment of Class Levels they require. My advice would be to go something like:

Monk 3/Barbarian 5/Fighter 2/Reaping Mauler 5/whatever 5

In that order too. You can switch alignment from Lawful to Chaotic before level 4 to qualify for Barbarian (you don't lose Monk abilities for being non-lawful). Monk 3 nets you Improved Grapple, Evasion and Combat Reflexes. Barbarian 5 gives you Improved Uncanny Dodge. These 4 traits, if nothing else, are the core abilities I'd expect from a Pit Fighter; cat-like reflexes and eyes in the back of your head, no-one gets the jump on you and you're as happy in the midst of your foes as you are in single combat. You'll also have Rage 2/day, which gives you a little staying power too. The Fighter dip is to pick up any extra feats you think you might need and Reaping Mauler is the Grappler PrC of doom (if you can get a friendly spellcaster to buff your grapple modifier to the nines; Enlarge Person and Bulls Strength is just the beginnings on that subject)

[AtwasAwamps]

Not gonna argue with that. Makes total sense and is definitely something that could be worked with in a lot of ways.

Thanks for the all the help. This has given me a lot to think about and play with. I'm still open to further suggestions, but I think a combo of monk/fighter/barb/reaping mauler is going to give me the flavor and efficacy I have been picturing for this combatant.

[9mm]

AVOID REAPING MAULER LIKE THE PLAUGE!!!!

seriously don't even bother, it's mechanicly built to do the exact OPPOSITE of what you want. Monk/fighter or warblade/Lion spirit totem barb is what you want. important feats are improved unarmed, superior unarmed, improved grapple, grasp of the scorpion, choke hold, ect.

[jiriku]

Consider also using a net and a trip weapon. Knocking your enemy off his feat or tangling him in a net always wins approval from the crowd.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Unarmed Swordsage with Tiger Claw and Setting Sun? Maybe a little Stone Dragon for survivability?

Master of Masks makes for a good one-level dip for the Gladiator mask, which nets you *ALL* exotic weapon proficencies.

[AtwasAwamps]

AVOID REAPING MAULER LIKE THE PLAUGE!!!!

seriously don't even bother, it's mechanicly built to do the exact OPPOSITE of what you want.

Sorry? I just looked up the mechanics for it (available online) and it actually looks perfect...what are you assuming I want?

I'm envisioning, if I must lay it out in these terms, a sort of high fantasy version of an MMA fighter. He closes in and fights with brutal, nasty, painful assaults. I don't intend for him to be a real "martial artist" sort, despite the monk levels (hence my desire to avoid warblade and similar classes that rely on the stylish/martial arty maneuvers).

Reaping Mauler, with its emphasis on overpowering and disabling an enemy to leave them open for a brutal physical pounding or to simply completely disable or kill an opponent via grappling seems perfect to me. I can completely envision this character engaged in a struggle with some kind of hideous beastie for 30 seconds that ends in a sharp tug, a loud crack, and victory pose with a cheer from the audience.

[AtwasAwamps]

gah! accidental double post! why can't I deletes it?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

[QUOTE=AtwasAwamps;7068021]

AVOID REAPING MAULER LIKE THE PLAUGE!!!!

seriously don't even bother, it's mechanicly built to do the exact OPPOSITE of what you want. /QUOTE]

Sorry? I just looked up the mechanics for it (available online) and it actually looks perfect...what are you assuming I want?

I'm envisioning, if I must lay it out in these terms, a sort of high fantasy version of an MMA fighter. He closes in and fights with brutal, nasty, painful assaults. I don't intend for him to be a real "martial artist" sort, despite the monk levels (hence my desire to avoid warblade and similar classes that rely on the stylish/martial arty maneuvers).

Reaping Mauler, with its emphasis on overpowering and disabling an enemy to leave them open for a brutal physical pounding or to simply completely disable or kill an opponent via grappling seems perfect to me. I can completely envision this character engaged in a struggle with some kind of hideous beastie for 30 seconds that ends in a sharp tug, a loud crack, and victory pose with a cheer from the audience.

Reaping Mauler is also completely worthless against anything your size or larger. In fact, you are completely ineligible for the class if you are larger than Medium size...

Fort save DC 10+class level (in a 5 level class) + Wis mod? Please, I can shrug that off without blinking. The two nifty class features are never going to land on anything

[AtwasAwamps]

Reaping Mauler is also completely worthless against anything your size or larger. In fact, you are completely ineligible for the class if you are larger than Medium size...

Fort save DC 10+class level (in a 5 level class) + Wis mod? Please, I can shrug that off without blinking. The two nifty class features are never going to land on anything

I'm not really concerned about optimizing and any character I'd play would most likely be medium sized anyways. Reaping Mauler does exactly what I would want this character to do. I'm not expecting to grapple an adult dragon and quite frankly would expect to not be particularly useful in that situation, but the concept entertains me and should I get a chance to create and use this character, RM is the only thing that fits with the concept in my brain.

[9mm]

Sorry? I just looked up the mechanics for it (available online) and it actually looks perfect...what are you assuming I want?

I'm envisioning, if I must lay it out in these terms, a sort of high fantasy version of an MMA fighter. He closes in and fights with brutal, nasty, painful assaults. I don't intend for him to be a real "martial artist" sort, despite the monk levels (hence my desire to avoid warblade and similar classes that rely on the stylish/martial arty maneuvers).

Reaping Mauler, with its emphasis on overpowering and disabling an enemy to leave them open for a brutal physical pounding or to simply completely disable or kill an opponent via grappling seems perfect to me. I can completely envision this character engaged in a struggle with some kind of hideous beastie for 30 seconds that ends in a sharp tug, a loud crack, and victory pose with a cheer from the audience.

Unfortunately Reaping Mauler doesn't do that; here's the beak down of what it does:

Pre-reqs:
Improved unarmed, fits the profile and is ok.
clever Wrestling: gives bonuses to ESCAPE grapples of larger oppenents, because that is excatly what a grappler wants to do, Get out of grapples *roll eyes*

Class ablities:
Mobility: useless feat is useless
Improved grapple: chances are you would have already taken this... but if you haven't you get free.
counter wrestling (i don't remeber the exact name): ability to use escape artist as a free action to ESCAPE grapples... when you want to BE IN grapples.
adept wrestling: a net +2 to grapple checks... you can get that with the Weapon focus tree.
Sleeper hold: DC is 10+5+wis at compleation of PRC; choke hold feat is 10+total levels+wis. guess which one works more often?
Devestating Grapples: 2 problems, 1, you need to pin 3 strait turns with no pin escapes so you could just disable them through unarmed-grapple damage alone, 2. same DC for Sleeper lock.

with by avoiding Reaping mauler you can get the abities you want, none of the crude, AND do it better.

[AtwasAwamps]

...Okay, but it's COOL.

I'll look into it, though. Good points on both counts.

[9mm]

...Okay, but it's COOL.

I'll look into it, though. Good points on both counts.

Oh believe me, I PLAYED one, so I know how you feel. It just doesn't quite work out by having its early levels and pre-reqs go into the exact opposite of what you want to do.

[AtwasAwamps]

WHy do RP systems constantly fight against my need to strangle orcs to death?

[9mm]

they don't, they just hide everything across the entire suplement spread.

I'd start with Monk 2 for unarmed strike, wis to ac, and improved grapple, then lion barb for pounce (though bear works too with a +4 to grapple, but I find Pounce + scorpions Grasp, aka improved grab works better) then Fighter for Superior Unarmed, chock hold, weapon focus: grapple, ect. once you break 10 psywar or totemist dips will help keep your gapple-mod high + let you wrestle bigger stuff, also if your willing to go with it, Black Blood Cultist can work wonders. Also with good synergy is Justicar which can add more options to the grapple.

[Paulus]

WHy do RP systems constantly fight against my need to strangle orcs to death?

If you ask me Barbarian would be more useful than Reaping mauler for your purposes.

Strangling orcs to death works a lot better when you simply do it in a screaming blood frenzy as opposed to a sleeper hold. Now, if say your reaping mauler class gave you better wrestling moves, Piledriver, atomic drop, power bomb, moonsault, figure four leglock... THEN I would go reaping mauler. But as it is, you take a bunch of class features that are better replicated with feats, AND you loose out on the Barbarian's better progression. In fact... I would simply go straight barb with this one. Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Choke Hold, then go for rage feats, and you'd have a pretty brutal pit fighter.

And lest we forget. Conan started as a slave, became a pit fighter, THEN a barbarian. So. It all makes sense see?

EDIT: Specifically, maybe Extend Rage, Earth's Embrace (complete War) and Scorpions Grasp (Sandstorm)... Oh an choke hold is from Oriental Adventures and requires stunning fist, so maybe a bit of monk would help after all.