Practiced Manifester combined with Expanded Knolwedge

[Stegyre]

This discussion began in the RAW thread. This OP will re-post the comments from that thread. I will continue the discussion (i.e., with new posts) in the next post:

Q 207
Practiced Manifester:

Your manifester level for the chosen manifesting class increases by four. This benefit can't increase your manifester level higher than your Hit Dice. . . . This feat does not affect your powers per day or powers known. It only increases your manifester level, which helps you overcome power resistance and increases the duration and other effects of your powers.

Expanded Knowledge:

Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest.

Maybe I'm slow and I just never realized this before, or maybe I'm interpreting these wrong, but by RAW, doesn't this allow the following:
(1) level one in a psionic class, ideally psion or ardent, as both of these acquire power levels at the maximum rate.
(2) multi-class out to whatever you want for four more levels, and take Practiced Manifester along the way.
(3) take Expanded Knowledge: even though, from your one actual ML you have only first-level powers, you are now able to chose any first or second level power, from any power list, because at "ML 5" from the PM feat, you are, by RAW, able to manifest 3rd level powers.

Am I right, or where is the flaw in my reasoning?

(I considered if something similar would be possible with Practiced Spellcaster and Extra Slot, but the different mechanics seem to rule it out. Comment on the question is welcome, however.)

A 207

As your quote indicates, Practiced Manifester doesn't increase your powers known. Even with ML 5 the highest-level power you know is still level 1. This is because if you take 1 level of Psion, the Psion Table specifies that you can know 3 powers and the Maximum Power Level Known for all of them is 1st. While the Practiced Manifester boosts your ML, you're still stuck knowing the same powers, none of them above 1st level. As such Expanded Knowledge can only give you access to a 0th level power.

I don't mean to quibble, because really, this goes to the very heart of my question, but Expanded Knowledge does not condition the power you learn on the basis of the powers you know, as I'm reading it, the only limit on the new power is "any level up to one less than the highest-level power you can manifest."

The quoted language could have two different meanings. First, if you only have 1st level powers known, then you can only manifest first level powers. This interpretation has at least two problems: (a) assume a 3rd level psion took all first level powers -- leads to an absurd result; (b) ardents, at least, have a RAW power progression that is unique: they may learn any new power, provided they are "able to manifest the new power at the level at which [it is learned]." CPsi 7. The specific example given is to be able to pay the required pp cost due to sufficient ML. (At a minimum, I think this argument, in general, is stronger for Ardents than other classes, due to this unusual RAW mechanic.)

Second, any level up to one less than the highest-level power you can manifest," may simply mean a measure of the highest level power a character could manifest if he knew the highest level power he could know. All psionic characters have an absolute limit of their ML, but it would seem more reasonable to defer to their stated power level progression: psions can manifest a new power level every other level (as can Ardents); PWs, every three levels, etc.

Is there a reasoned basis for choosing the first interpretation over the second? I'm not meaning to start a lengthy debate, but I just what to be sure this is considered in the response.

Of course there's a reason: the letter of the RAW specifies the highest-level power you can manifest. There's no wiggle room here, because any theoretical powers a manifester of your ML might have are merely wishful thinking and not part of the RAW. If a higher-level Psion never learned higher than 1st level powers, they would be in the same situation.

[Stegyre]

Here's the issue I have with Crum.'s latest response: the RAW Expanded Knowledge example specifically contradicts it:

. . . For example, a 7th-level psion gains either a new 1st, 2nd, or 3rd-level power. . . .

This 7th-level Psion could have all 1st-level powers (it would be foolish, but that's not the point). The point of the example is clearly that, because a 7th-level psion is capable of manifesting a 4th level power (whether or not he knows one), he is able to use Expanded Knowledge to learn up to 3rd-level powers.

[Myrmex]

Here's the issue I have with Crum.'s latest response: the RAW Expanded Knowledge example specifically contradicts it:

This 7th-level Psion could have all 1st-level powers (it would be foolish, but that's not the point). The point of the example is clearly that, because a 7th-level psion is capable of manifesting a 4th level power (whether or not he knows one), he is able to use Expanded Knowledge to learn up to 3rd-level powers.

And a level 1 psion is incapable of manifesting anything higher than a 1st level power, regardless of his manifester level.

What's not to get?

[Douglas]

A Psion 1/Fighter 4 with Practiced Manifester is capable of manifesting a level 1 power at manifester level 5, potentially augmented with up to 4 power points. He could, for example, manifest Mind Thrust for 5d10 damage (provided he has 5 power points available to spend). No matter how high his manifester level or how much he augments it, however, it is still a level 1 power.

If that character then took another level of Psion, he would gain two new powers known. Both would be first level. The table of maximum power level known goes by class level, not manifester level. His Mind Thrust could now do up to 6d10 damage, but it would still be a level 1 power and he still would not be able to learn any powers higher than level 1. If he took Expanded Knowledge it would be limited to level 0 powers, which do not exist, and the feat would be completely useless.

[Sinfire Titan]

The Ardent is a different case though, as their powers are based on Manifester level, not class level. The Ardent class has no Maximum Power Level column.

At each additional level, an
ardent learns one new power
from her available mantles.
She must be able to manifest
the new power at the level at
which she learns it, however.
For example, an ardent who
attains 5th level can learn
any power from one of her
mantles that costs 5 power
points or less to manifest;
she cannot learn a power
from a mantle that costs
more than 5 power points to
manifest until she attains a
level capable of manifesting
a power with that cost.

[Stegyre]

I admit, psion may not work. However, like ST, my initial realization of this mechanic was with the Ardent. As ST says, an Ardent with ML 5 is, by RAW, able to manifest 3rd level powers.

Side question (particularly as I am afb): could a "something" 5 / ardent 1 take PM as he enters the Ardent class and therefore select 3rd level powers for his first two powers?

[Sinfire Titan]

I admit, psion may not work. However, like ST, my initial realization of this mechanic was with the Ardent. As ST says, an Ardent with ML 5 is, by RAW, able to manifest 3rd level powers.

Side question (particularly as I am afb): could a "something" 5 / ardent 1 take PM as he enters the Ardent class and therefore select 3rd level powers for his first two powers?

If he qualified for PM prior to taking Ardent levels, yes. If only there were a Psi/Psi Mystic Theurge in a WotC book...

[powerdemon]

Practiced Manifester is the Psionic equivalent of practiced spellcaster. The same applies for both feats. You don't learn new spells. If that were so, you could take one level of cleric, and then never go back and just take practiced spellcaster while you take levels in other classes.

It increases the CL so it would increase caster level checks and perhaps the number of dice rolled for damage.

[Sinfire Titan]

Practiced Manifester is the Psionic equivalent of practiced spellcaster. The same applies for both feats. You don't learn new spells. If that were so, you could take one level of cleric, and then never go back and just take practiced spellcaster while you take levels in other classes.

It increases the CL so it would increase caster level checks and perhaps the number of dice rolled for damage.

Again, see the Ardent, above. It cheats a little.

[powerdemon]

Again, see the Ardent, above. It cheats a little.

I'm going off the original question in the first post.

[Stegyre]

If he qualified for PM prior to taking Ardent levels, yes.

Why that qualification? If I remember RAW correctly, the first decision on level-up is the class (so all class prerequisites must have been reached by the prior level up), but from there, the player can pretty much choose. Thus, it would seem that I can go:

(1) Ardent 1
(2) PM (suddenly making him "ML 5")
(3) choose two up-to-3rd-level powers

In fact, it seems that, if anything, that wouldn't work, as PM must apply to an manifesting class "that you possess." You could not take the feat in anticipation of acquiring a manifesting class later, if I understand RAW. (Specifically, the rule that feats/spells/powers/etc. must be selected as soon as they become available and cannot be saved for later.)

I don't have nearly the experience or background of others around here, so I may well be missing something, which is why I ask.

[Curmudgeon]

If I remember RAW correctly, the first decision on level-up is the class (so all class prerequisites must have been reached by the prior level up), but from there, the player can pretty much choose.

The player can't "pretty much choose"; rather, there's a step-by-step procedure for how level advancement works on pages 58-59 of the Player's Handbook. Feat choice does come before class features, though.

[Douglas]

Yeah, it appears this trick can work with Ardent due to the unusual wording of how that class's maximum power level known is determined and the technicalities of the levelup process.

1) Choose class (Ardent)
2) Choose feat (Practiced Manifester)
3) Choose class features (powers known)

By the time you get to selecting powers known your manifester level is already boosted by PM, and the wording of Ardent's new power selection process makes that matter. So, you have a Fighter 5/Ardent 1 with level 3 powers known. At level 9, you could take Expanded Knowledge for a level 2 power even if you still had only a single level of Ardent.

You do have to actually get that 3rd level power known before taking Expanded Knowledge, though.

[Stegyre]

The player can't "pretty much choose"; rather, there's a step-by-step procedure for how level advancement works on pages 58-59 of the Player's Handbook. Feat choice does come before class features, though.

Thanks for that clarification.

Yeah, it appears this trick can work with Ardent due to the unusual wording of how that class's maximum power level known is determined and the technicalities of the levelup process.
. . . .

You do have to actually get that 3rd level power known before taking Expanded Knowledge, though.

I'm not quite persuaded, but considering the apparent cheesiness of starting the Ardent class with two third-level powers, this is the sort of point I'd readily compromise on.

Potential new / additional topic: some things are simply so broken I won't even go there. Consider Practised Spellcaster plus Practiced Manifester plus Psiotheurgist. As written (as near as I can tell), you could go spellcaster (any) 4 / ardent 4, and within your selected school and discipline specialty be treated as having CL & ML 16. Of limited benefit on the spellcaster side, but the ardent with 8 character levels is able to select 8th level powers, or seventh level, using Expanded Knowledge.(!!) Wearing a GM hat, I cannot see myself allowing Psiotheurgist.

[DragoonWraith]

Manifesting a power requires knowing the power - so if the highest level power you know is 1st, then the highest level power you can manifest is 1st, and therefore you cannot even take Expanded Knowledge, much less take a 2nd level power.

[Stegyre]

Manifesting a power requires knowing the power . . .

Actually, no, it does not. Characters may "manifest" powers from power stones, for example, which, by RAW, is referred to as "manifest[ing] the power":

If the user meets these requirements and has a manifester level at least equal to the power’s manifester level, she can automatically manifest the stored power without a check.

cite

Psionic characters may also manifest powers they don't know from another willing character, although in this case, they must know a power of at least that level.

[mabriss lethe]

while it could be fairly broken if allowed, I'm not sure if it's that big of an issue, since a character that relied on expanded knowledge and PM would most likely be very, very short on power points to fuel those powers.

[Stegyre]

Side question (particularly as I am afb): could a "something" 5 / ardent 1 take PM as he enters the Ardent class and therefore select 3rd level powers for his first two powers?

Reading the entry for Ardents, I do not think that this works, after all.

By RAW: "An Ardent begins play knowing two of the first powers available to her based on her choice of mantles. Each mantle features at least one power with a cost of 1 power point. An ardent selects two of these powers from her two known mantles at 1st level. At each additional level, . . . [an Ardent can choose powers up to the maximum level she can manifest]."

Thus, I can only employ this trick on the second and later levels of Ardent + PM.

[Eldaran]

Why bother with expanded knowledge, which I suspect like others wouldn't work, when you can use Psychic Chirurgery?

If desired, you can use this power to directly transfer knowledge of a power you know to another psionic character. You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list.

Seems like there's no question, to me, that as long as you have the manifester level you can receive a power. Of course, it's ridiculously expensive to pay an NPC to do it, or get a player to do it, but it's still possible.

[Jack_Simth]

Why bother with expanded knowledge, which I suspect like others wouldn't work, when you can use Psychic Chirurgery?



Seems like there's no question, to me, that as long as you have the manifester level you can receive a power. Of course, it's ridiculously expensive to pay an NPC to do it, or get a player to do it, but it's still possible.

Oh, hey - Overchannel. That could be handy with this exploit.

[Flickerdart]

Oh, hey - Overchannel. That could be handy with this exploit.

That's be a pretty neat character concept. A character that just has one dip in a Manifesting class, harbouring inside an incredible power (+4 PM, +3 Overchannel, +1 Ioun stone = 9th level Psion = 5th level powers), but using it takes its toll on the character (5d8 damage, average 22.5). Such a character would also make great use of Body Fuel, to get the PP he would otherwise not have. It'd work well with races that have huge racial HD and equally huge stat boosts (just don't squander that INT!).

[Stegyre]

Why bother with expanded knowledge, which I suspect like others wouldn't work, when you can use Psychic Chirurgery?

The short answer is that, in an E6 campaign, I've yet to figure out an exploit to gain access to a 9th level power.

Up to 6th level appears do-able, via a Psionic Artificer creating dorjes or power stones, but I'd need a way to arrive at another 6 effective ML for item creation to reach the effective ML 17 to simulate a 9th level power.

[Eldaran]

Well, you wouldn't be casting it yourself, so you wouldn't need ML 17. You'd, ideally, be getting an npc to cast it on you, the problem being the cost.

It would be best for you to get your one high level power to be something that will always be useful. If you're dealing with limited power points as well it should probably be something you'll only need to manifest once.

[Flickerdart]

For reference purposes, how much does it cost for an NPC casting of Psychic Chirurgery casting to impart the knowledge of a power to you?

[Stegyre]

For reference purposes, how much does it cost for an NPC casting of Psychic Chirurgery casting to impart the knowledge of a power to you?

The formulaic cost should be the same as for spell-casting:
ML (17) * 90 + 5 * XP cost (1,000 * PL of implanted power).
For even a first-level power, this puts the cost over 6,000. The SRD notes that if additional costs put the total cost over 3,000, the service "is not generally available." Thus, even in a regular campaign, it should take more than merely flashing the cash to get this service.

(In an E6 campaign, where NPCs, as well as PCs, are limited to 6 character levels, it remains securely out the realm of any possibilities I've yet been able to contrive.)

[Flickerdart]

So it'd cost about 46k to get a 9th level power...I could see this being justified for a higher-level campaign. Might not be very optimal, but does help high-LA and high-RHD races.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Yes that's correct. No need to read. It forms one of the jacked-up Tier 5 characters I keep meaning to post here.

Besides being an ardent (which is see mentioned a lot), Psychic Chirurgery fixes everything