[3.5] Avoiding Fridge Logic (Plot Help, my players stay out!)

[Rhiannon87]

Ugh. So, I was going over my notes for the second half of my campaign, and I realized there is a huge, massive, float-the tarrasque-on-a-zeppelin-through-it plot hole in my plan.

Here's the VERY basic outline: a powerful wizard is allied with a powerful devil. Wizard has created an item that basically creates a kind of empathy between two people/two groups/etc; it's a state of perfect understanding beween two creatures, and because of this perfect understanding, they tend to view each other as friends and want to help each other achieve their goals. The wizard and devil are using this item to build an army of demons/devils/elementals/etc. in order to start a war in hell. The party is recruited by the wizard to do stuff for him (collect items, etc). Eventually, the wizard is going to revolt against the devil and kill him and then the party will have to deal with the crazy wizard and his army in order to save the Material Plane. Fun stuff. (The party isn't going to know about this empathy item until VERY late in the game, btw.)

My problem: why the frell doesn't the wizard just use this item on the party to get them to do what he wants?

The obvious answer is a metagaming one: it's no fun if I'm forcing the party to behave in a certain way. No fun at all. Alignment shifts are frequently involved in the use of this item (demon and devil who use it, for instance, both end up as NE), and I would basically be asking the players to change their character's outlook, personality, and possibly alignment. And there is no friggin' way I am doing that.

But how do I explain this within the framework of the game? What reasons could my wizard have for not wanting to convince the party that they're his bestest buddies and they want to help him? This will also provide a reason, hopefully, as to why he hasn't done this to some of his other minions (NPCs the party will encounter). The only thing I could come up with is that he's becoming aware that his own attitudes are being swayed by his interaction with all these outsiders, but then he'd want to stop using it entirely, and that doesn't work either.

Is there anything I can do about this, or should I just hope that my players don't notice this problem... and if they do, that they recognize the metagamey reasons for me doing this, and leave well enough alone?

[AmberVael]

My problem: why the frell doesn't the wizard just use this item on the party to get them to do what he wants?

Because, as per your condition, it makes perfect empathy between two people. He doesn't want to help the party (as he would if he used the item), and if they oppose him, the meshing of their two viewpoints probably won't end with him achieving his goal.

Edit: On rereading this, I think I misread some things, but the basic idea can still work. The Wizard doesn't want to take on some of their views and thoughts- he wants to do what he wants to do, and the item would change that.

[JeenLeen]

If the party is collecting items for the wizard, perhaps some of the items are warded in a way (usually undetectable) that make it how someone who has used the wizard's item or who has had it used on them cannot get to the item?

This only protects the party while they are still useful to the wizard, but it explains early on.

[Oslecamo]

The super artifact only works on outsiders?

The party is actually composed of guys who're immune to the item thingy for mysterious reasons, so the wizard is keeping them close to see if he can figure out why? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer? he doesn't get rid of them because his wizard curiosity demands him to discover what's going on!

The artifact thingy is actualy unstable and misworks several times, but the wizard actually thinks it managed to affect the party since they're working for him?

[Rhiannon87]

Because, as per your condition, it makes perfect empathy between two people. He doesn't want to help the party, and if they oppose him, the meshing of their two viewpoints probably won't end with him achieving his goal.

It can be between one person and a group, two groups, etc. And his goal at the beginning of the section is in line with the devil's, to wage war on Hell. But as time goes on and he empathizes with more and more ordinary devils/demons, his own goal shifts to wanting to conquer the Material Plane. But at the beginning, he more or less recruits the party by telling them "I'm imprisoned by this devil, help me get items X Y Z and I will be free and he will attack hell, and devils fighting each other is good for us, right?". So he wants to verbally persuade them to go along, but I just don't see why he'd bother when he's got a shiny toy that can make them want to cooperate.

[lsfreak]

If the connection is broken, those under its effects immediately know what happened and who did it, including details. The players will be out to destroy the wizard if the item is used on them and then broken.

The wizard is smart, wants the PC's to stay on his side, and knows that as he betrays the devil the devil will do everything in his power to sever the connection with as many powerful minions as he can, including the PC's. The wizard hopes that the devil will spend precious seconds trying to break a nonexistant connection between the PC's and the wizard instead of freeing the devils/demons. And, if all goes as planned, the PC's still won't know what's happened until too late.

[Rhiannon87]

The super artifact only works on outsiders?

The party is actually composed of guys who're immune to the item thingy for mysterious reasons, so the wizard is keeping them close to see if he can figure out why? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer?

The artifact thingy is actualy unstable and misworks several times, but the wizard actually thinks it managed to affect the party since they're working for him?

Nah, not just outsiders, that's just what they're mostly focusing on. It would work on anyone, but they're building their army out of demons/devils/elementals/formians/the occasional celestial.

The second idea could work, but it veers dangerously close to "you guys are the Chosen Ones! Only You Can Save The World!", which is a plot line that I haaaaaate.

The wizard is smart, wants the PC's to stay on his side, and knows that as he betrays the devil the devil will do everything in his power to sever the connection with as many powerful minions as he can, including the PC's. The wizard hopes that the devil will spend precious seconds trying to break a nonexistant connection between the PC's and the wizard instead of freeing the devils/demons. And, if all goes as planned, the PC's still won't know what's happened until too late.

Hmm. Maybe. Although by the time he's taking on this devil, the wizard doesn't really give a flying f*** about the PCs... but perhaps initially, as he's starting to think about this rebellion, he figures out this strategy. Although that does change how the item works... it's not a compulsion effect, it's just pure empathy. At the highest setting, you experience someone else's memories as though they were your own, and as a result, you care as deeply about that person as you do about yourself, because it feels eerily like that person is you, in a weird way.

[Clementx]

When they ask why didn't the wizard use the artifact on them, just look at them flatly and ask, "What makes you think he didn't? Why were you running errands for a random guy? Because he was the quest giver and the plot wouldn't work without him? Yeah, right."

Either that, or using the item requires a degree of investment or action the wizard didn't want to spend on the PCs when the normal rewards of money and items would work. Outsiders have decidedly more unique motivations and tastes.

I do like the idea of keeping the PCs are natural allies, unaffected by the artifact, should it be disrupted or destroyed.

[jiriku]

Clem has a good one. The wizard has ALREADY used this item on the players. Everything they've done for him, which they thought was done of their own free will, is a product of very, very subtle magical compulsion. At some point, a powerful spellcaster opposed to the wizard casts a fancy dispel on the party, and you say to them "You feel as if you've just awakened from a long dream. Suddenly, you realize that you can't trust this wizard because of [insert suspicious behavior or conflicts of interest that they were aware of but have been ignoring until now]. In fact, you realize as the fog of confusion recedes from your mind that he's been magically controlling you somehow!"

Alternately, perhaps the item's use it limited by charges, or using it drains some limited resource he has, like time or stamina or spell slots. He doesn't want to "waste" those resources on low-level flunkies like the players.

Alternately alternately, perhaps the wizard needs the players to interact with a potent adversary who would detect (and be suspicious of) the magical aura of domination left by the item. He needs people with untouched minds who this adversary would not suspect of being his pawns.

[AtwasAwamps]

A few thoughts...

The Artifact in question may simply be hard to use. Dominating/Empathing with an enormous amount of elementals/devils/etc. must be a strain. Rather than attempt to exert even more force on himself by manipulating some random adventurers, he preyed on their good natures. By the time he realizes he SHOULD use the artifact on them, its too late...they're strong enough that the extra strain could be disastrous.

OR

The Artifact's power is dependant on the force of personality. Got high charisma characters in the party? They're the stop-gap. Controlling/Empathing them would simply be too hard and he doesn't want to risk it.

OR

The sympathetic villain. He had planned to use it, but realized he was rapidly putting himself in a position where nobody would like him for any other reason than he was forcing them to. He left the PCs alone to see if he could still, on some level, be a worthwhile human being to them. Makes for some heartwrenching final villain stuff if you can make him out to simply be a terrified lonely man lashing out wildly when he betrays the ones he set out to have be his own personal "redeemers"


EDIT: I hate the "you were controlled the whole time" thing. It will make players feel like the whole campaign and all their RPing was invalid if they were controlled the entire time, no matter how subtle you fluff the control as being.

[chiasaur11]

When they ask why didn't the wizard use the artifact on them, just look at them flatly and ask, "What makes you think he didn't? Why were you running errands for a random guy? Because he was the quest giver and the plot wouldn't work without him? Yeah, right."

Strive for your next breath. Believe that with it you can do
more than with the last one. Use your breath to power your
capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

And just where do your capacities come from? Why do you
always go where I want and do what I say?

Perhaps you're just running a fool's errand, doing everything
as I've planned, never able to change your course.

Or, perhaps, that is not the case.

Perhaps, you are doing what you were meant to do. Your human
mentality screams for vengeance and thrives on the violence
that you say you can hardly endure. Your father told you as a
child to always fight with honor, but to always fight. Do you
care about honor, or do you use honor as an excuse? An excuse
to exist in a violent world.

Organic beings are constantly fighting for life. Every
breath, every motion brings you one instant closer to your
death. With that kind of heritage and destiny, how can you
deny yourself? How can you expect yourself to give up
violence?

It is your nature.

Do you feel free?

(Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

[AmberVael]

It can be between one person and a group, two groups, etc. And his goal at the beginning of the section is in line with the devil's, to wage war on Hell. But as time goes on and he empathizes with more and more ordinary devils/demons, his own goal shifts to wanting to conquer the Material Plane. But at the beginning, he more or less recruits the party by telling them "I'm imprisoned by this devil, help me get items X Y Z and I will be free and he will attack hell, and devils fighting each other is good for us, right?". So he wants to verbally persuade them to go along, but I just don't see why he'd bother when he's got a shiny toy that can make them want to cooperate.

Let me clarify my position.

You say the item creates a sort of sharing and complete understanding between people.

My suggestion is that, if he's using it on the party because he doesn't think he can persuade them normally (or even if he could), then it will not only change them to work with him, but change him to work with them.

And presumably he doesn't want to bother with whatever puny goals and ideas and what not they have- and furthermore, that level of linkage leaves one very vulnerable and open to someone else. It would be very dangerous to do that just whenever you wanted.

What is more, it does change the way you think and exist and live- almost comparable to dying. He wants to wage war on hell and presumably be himself. Why would he merge himself with a random group of adventurers when it could change his very existence?

[Lunawarrior0]

Possibly it is infeasible for him to do so.

One way to make it hard to impossible for the wizard to use it may be that in order for the object to take effect it takes quite a long time (1-8 hour thing), all the while the people who are being affected have to be in a given area. Basically in order for it to effect anyone they have to hang out in a circle for an hour or so.

Or maybe for some reason the person who has it used on them has to be aware and willing. It is possible the item would even give you an idea as to the other person's alignment so the joining is completely voluntary. One reason this might be is it could make the item much easier to craft.

These might not match with what you had in mind for the item, but it would give the PC's practical immunity.

Final thought about the whole he has used it on them: "would you kindly go get me X Y and Z."

[DudestMonk]

You could make it sort of like Sovereign, the sentient ship with mind control powers in Mass Effect (really good sci-fi RGP). Where the effect is gradual, and more over the more control Sovereign gains over any being the less useful/more zombie like they become.

So your players are being influenced on a very low level, they are completely unaware and act as they normally would, although they feel a strange compulsion of empathy and trust toward the wizard.

As opposed to the rest of his minions who are under the full effect of his spell and are more or less his slaves. Feeling nothing but completely empathy and devotion, limiting their use for the special tasks your party has completed but making them an effective legion for his nefarious purposes.

[Dragonmuncher]

He doesn't want to become more like the party, and doesn't want to feel empathy towards the party.

Using it on an evil outsider he plans to betray makes sense, since they betray each other anyway. If he used it on a group of good, non-ultrapowerful wizards, he wouldn't be gaining anything.

Much better just to trick/manipulate them into doing what he wants, and only use the artifact on evil, powerful things he plans to betray later.

[Ditto]

Agreed, the more like him the party becomes, the less useful they would be.

Also, it makes sense you'd only use the artefact if you have to. Why command every private in the army when you can catch the general? He shouldn't be using it willy-nilly - changing the alignment of an outsider, that's a pretty powerful gimmick. Changing the alignment of a mortal? Eh, catch him on a bad day and he'll commit murder.

[Vangor]

Since he has been working with Devils and similar outsiders who are almost utterly governed by a few facets such as alignment, maybe make this the contention for using the item with more nuanced and varied creatures? Simply, the item needs a strong focus of motivations, feelings, etc., to work properly otherwise other motivations and feelings interfere, effectively being akin to static.

Maybe this interferes entirely with using the item on the adventurers or to an extent the wizard simply does not bother?

[Guancyto]

Let me clarify my position.

You say the item creates a sort of sharing and complete understanding between people.

My suggestion is that, if he's using it on the party because he doesn't think he can persuade them normally (or even if he could), then it will not only change them to work with him, but change him to work with them.

Vael has the right of it. That's the sort of artifact that although it's incredibly powerful, you have to be very very careful about who you use it on.

Sure, you could use it to compel that insane supersorcerer to do your bidding - but then you would understand with perfect clarity the depth of his craziness. Use it on the local tribe of trolls who had too much lead in their water? You've got a loyal group of minions, but implicitly understand the psychology of a group whose thoughts for the day are "Ug stick hand in fire. Fire hot" and you empathize with their consternation at fire being hot.

It makes sense that he'd be using it on Devils. They're a lot of very sneaky, very intelligent and very long-lived creatures so meeting them halfway is a net gain for him. Some random bunch of joe schmoe adventurers? Unless he found a reason that he would actually want to do this, he wouldn't touch them with that thing. If they don't or wouldn't want the world conquered, could it make him doubt his cause? Could it make him abandon it? Can he take that chance on a lot of schlubs that he can probably manipulate the old-fashioned way?

Incidentally, getting him to use it on a Solar or another being made of Goodness could even be a way of defeating him - or a way of screwing over the cosmos. Getting his devil ally to use it on a Solar... I wonder what would happen?

[gdiddy]

If left in the same position, I would have retconned the plot so that the wizard assembled the team on purpose, because they were the only ones he could divine that were immune to the device. Have a big monologue scene where he shows them how they've been his puppets since day one. Say this plot has been in the works since the first session. When their minds are blown, pat yourself on the back and chug some Mountain Dew.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Is this really that hard? When I think of a wizard with a mind-influencing artifact teamed up with a devil, I think the wizard bound the devil (outsiders tend to be susceptible to that) and spammed Monstrous Thrall or whatever the effect was until the devil's will broke. A bit harder to do that with a group of humanoid enemies.

[Jayabalard]

other plot holes: The devil he's allied with is likely to know that the wizard is going to try and betray him, since he has such a good understanding of the wizard.

After becoming empathic and friends with the devil, he wouldn't want to betray the devil.

[Guancyto]

After becoming empathic and friends with the devil, he wouldn't want to betray the devil.

Hey, hey! Let's be fair here. If you had a perfect soulmate who understood you completely, wouldn't you stab them in the back the second you felt you could get away with it? I mean, they'd know where you hid the bodies and everything!

Also, the Devil would almost certainly be aware of this inevitable betrayal and is planning the same. The Wizard just happens to be better at it. The loser could even be happy for the winner; he knows his goals are going to be carried and he got to do the deadly dance of intrigue with someone for whom no obfuscation was possible.

Might even be a fun way to go.

[Rhiannon87]

The sympathetic villain. He had planned to use it, but realized he was rapidly putting himself in a position where nobody would like him for any other reason than he was forcing them to. He left the PCs alone to see if he could still, on some level, be a worthwhile human being to them. Makes for some heartwrenching final villain stuff if you can make him out to simply be a terrified lonely man lashing out wildly when he betrays the ones he set out to have be his own personal "redeemers"

THIS I like! It actually fits in with his personality and background fairly well already... he's going to grow increasingly eccentric and "off" as he links with more and more evil creatures, and the party will probably notice this and react to it... hell, their reactions could be the catalyst that sets him off on his Burn The World Tour. It would also make the final showdown (four levels or so later) much more interesting.

Final thought about the whole he has used it on them: "would you kindly go get me X Y and Z."

Love it. I should have him use that phrase, just to mess with the players who'll get the reference.

Hey, hey! Let's be fair here. If you had a perfect soulmate who understood you completely, wouldn't you stab them in the back the second you felt you could get away with it? I mean, they'd know where you hid the bodies and everything!

Also, the Devil would almost certainly be aware of this inevitable betrayal and is planning the same. The Wizard just happens to be better at it. The loser could even be happy for the winner; he knows his goals are going to be carried and he got to do the deadly dance of intrigue with someone for whom no obfuscation was possible.

Might even be a fun way to go.

That's part of it. The other part is that after the initial empathy thing, the devil and the wizard have kind of been off seeing to their respective parts of the plan, and the wizard has been getting empathy-ed with all these guys who are, essentially, going to be cannon fodder for the war. He doesn't want to send his new friends to die, and besides, their view of things is starting to sound really good...

[herrhauptmann]

It could be taht it works easily and quickly, like 10 minutes when used on a single entity. Especially if the entity shares alignment or goals with the user.
Trying to use it on a group, and it becomes more difficult the larger teh group is, plus it takes longer. 1 person might be 10 minutes. 2 people might be 25 (10*2.5). 3 people is 62.5 minutes (25*2.5). 4 people is over 2 and a half hours.
And that's assuming that goals/alignments mesh. The for every 1 step difference between alignment, it takes longer double for that person.
LE wizard on LE cleric= 10 minutes
LE wiz on LE clr and LE blackguard= 25 min
LE wiz on LE clr and NE blackguard= 40 minutes (10 for cleric, +15 for second person, +15 for second person having an alignment 1 step away from LE).

The wizard might find it difficult to split the party up long enough for the 10-30 minutes per person it'll take to attune them.

Maybe the artifact can attune someone to be an equal, which includes ability to use artifact (only shared with the devil). But it can attune someone to be a subservient and loyal follower. But attuning someone to be subservient takes away some of their initiative. The only way for them to keep their initiative is if you attune them as an equal. But even then, that could affect their alignment, like the paladin suddenly empathizing with the LE wizard might force an alignment shift on him.

[dspeyer]

Perhaps half of the item must be given to the target, and only works while he possesses it? Getting Outsiders to accept faintly magical gifts is tricky but doable. And a limit like this puts some bounds on the wizard's power.

Then establish that each one he creates has an XP cost, and it makes sense that he only uses them when lesser means won't suffice.

This leaves open the fear that if he decides the party is a threat, he will use this on them after all.

[Arutema]

Eventually, the wizard is going to revolt against the devil and kill him and then the party will have to deal with the crazy wizard and his army in order to save the Material Plane. Fun stuff. (The party isn't going to know about this empathy item until VERY late in the game, btw.)

My problem: why the frell doesn't the wizard just use this item on the party to get them to do what he wants?

The devil (correctly) anticipated the wizard's betrayal, and arranged the PCs to be warded against the empathy artifact from the very beginning.

Just as planned.

[woodenbandman]

Maybe you need to be willing.