Playing a Dragon Spellcaster

[Kobold-Bard]

Is there a good way of doing this, or am I deluding myself? I'll take stuff from any source, even homebrew as long as it's not ridiculous and pointless to even suggest it.

I know there are a lot of Dragon based threads already, and I apologise for there now being another one, but you fine forum-goers have survived the Was...morally justified? threads. I'm sure you can handle this

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If you just want the dragon type, then Dragonwrought Kobold is probably you're best bet. It also opens up tricks to net you accelerated casting via Loredrake (Dragons of Ebberon) and the draconic rituals (Races of the Dragon + web enhancement).

I know the Draconomicon has rules for playing real dragons, but, for any decent amount of in-game time, you'll run into the issue of having to spend levels on more HD and LA, due to the advancement rules.

Alternatively, pseudodragon with LA buy-off is probably the most cost-effective "real" dragon in terms of HD/LA to make this happen. Being tiny helps, too.

[Glimbur]

How "spellcaster" do you want? A Dragonfire Adept, from Dragon Magic, has lots of dragon flavor, a breath weapon, and some invocations like a warlock does. Best of all, it's a base class so you can start being like a dragon at level 1. A good race for this is anything with a Con bonus. Dragonborn Mongrelfolk is about the silliest you can get for Con at +0 LA, I would instead suggest Dwarf because it's more likely to be allowed.

[deuxhero]

Vulnerable Dragonwraught Kobold sorcerer. You can even take epic feats starting at level 3!


For a real dragon, Steel Dragon wyrmling lore drake is only 1 level behind a normal human sorcerer. Gish is a better way to go though, Wyrm of War Steel Dragon can get good. Brilliant Gameologist had a thread on good races/builds for dragon PCs.

[Godskook]

Do you want to be a dragon or count as one? There's various ways to count as a dragon, including feats, races, and classes. Spellscales hasn't been mentioned for races, there's Draconic Heritage and Dragontouched in the feat department, and Dragon Shaman will get you pretty close too. (while avoid already mentioned methods)

[Kobold-Bard]

Do you want to be a dragon or count as one? There's various ways to count as a dragon, including feats, races, and classes. Spellscales hasn't been mentioned for races, there's Draconic Heritage and Dragontouched in the feat department, and Dragon Shaman will get you pretty close too. (while avoid already mentioned methods)

I actually meant being a True Dragon, but this stuff being mentioned is still interesting.

[The_Snark]

I recall playing a river dragon once in a vaguely oriental setting. Rather than muck about with level adjustment and the like, I simply played a dragonborn dragonfire adept, picked invocations to suit what I wanted my "racial" abilities to be, and declared that my character was a ten-foot-long river dragon rather than a dragon-man. It only worked because we were starting at level 10 or so, of course, but you can't expect to play a dragon at level 1 anyway.

This doesn't help with spellcasting, but bear in mind that creative refluffing can help. If you want to be a spellcaster who has really good physical ability scores, natural armor, impressive size, flight, and a breath weapon... well, it's easy to see why you can't do that without giving up a lot of spellcasting power. If you want to play an ancient, withered dragon whose physical abilities are not terribly impressive thanks to studying magic in a cave for centuries, you might be able to get by with some creative refluffing and maybe a permanent size-enhancing spell.

[Paulus]

Or try to convince your Dm to play you as a character's Dragon mount, or a game where everyone is a dragon. Otherwise, playing a true dragon, let alone one who can cast spells, is more the villain role. Ask if you can play that if you like.

[Volkov]

If you mean a literal true dragon, then slap sorcerer levels on yourself to exploit the fact that your CR only increases by 1/2 as no class is associated with dragons and thus does not add a full 1 to CR per level.

[Kobold-Bard]

If you mean a literal true dragon, then slap sorcerer levels on yourself to exploit the fact that your CR only increases by 1/2 as no class is associated with dragons and thus does not add a full 1 to CR per level.

I have no idea what you jut said. Care to explain please

[Volkov]

I have no idea what you jut said. Care to explain please

For a dragon, it takes two sorcerer levels to increase their Challenge Rating by one. So A Great Wyrm brass dragon, which has the most balanced Challenge rating to Effective Sorcerer Level of the true dragons that I know of, would need two sorcerer levels to bump his Challenge rating from 23 to twenty four, while the dragon snags epic spell-casting and can begin the dreaded circle of epic magic cheese.

[Kobold-Bard]

For a dragon, it takes two sorcerer levels to increase their Challenge Rating by one. So A Great Wyrm brass dragon, which has the most balanced Challenge rating to Effective Sorcerer Level of the true dragons that I know of, would need two sorcerer levels to bump his Challenge rating from 23 to twenty four, while the dragon snags epic spell-casting and can begin the dreaded circle of epic magic cheese.

So if I play a Dragon I can get two Caster Levels/Level? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you and sounding like a moron, but it's late here and I kind of am one

[Volkov]

So if I play a Dragon I can get two Caster Levels/Level? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you and sounding like a moron, but it's late here and I kind of am one

Well two caster levels per challenge rating level but yes. A Dragon from Soviet Russia can get all the levels he wants and his effective character and challenge rating will only be what he wants it to be because things are awesome like that here in Russia.

[Godskook]

If you mean a literal true dragon, then slap sorcerer levels on yourself to exploit the fact that your CR only increases by 1/2 as no class is associated with dragons and thus does not add a full 1 to CR per level.

You're stretching it there:

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Even if you could argue that dragons don't "rely on their fighting ability" or "rely on stealth(Neither would convince me...), surely dragons have innate spellcasting.

For a dragon, it takes two sorcerer levels to increase their Challenge Rating by one. So A Great Wyrm brass dragon, which has the most balanced Challenge rating to Effective Sorcerer Level of the true dragons that I know of, would need two sorcerer levels to bump his Challenge rating from 23 to twenty four, while the dragon snags epic spell-casting and can begin the dreaded circle of epic magic cheese.

Oh no. With dragons old enough to actually have innate spellcasting, sorcerer levels are definitely associated.

[Volkov]

You're stretching it there:



Even if you could argue that dragons don't "rely on their fighting ability" or "rely on stealth(Neither would convince me...), surely dragons have innate spellcasting.



Oh no. With dragons old enough to actually have innate spellcasting, sorcerer levels are definitely associated.

Considering how little spellcasting adds to the power of dragons, I'd say it's nonassociated. Heck the Xorvintaal template which lets dragons dump their spellcasting powers in favor of some really neat super-natural abilities actually increases their CR.

[Kobold-Bard]

@Godskook: So this associated class thing. If I eat the LA/RHD for a Dragon and take a Level of Sorcerer, do they stack for my Spellcasting (Familiar can go **** itelf for all I care)? If so is it the LA and RHD, or just the Hit Dice?

Or have I still got it wrong?

Again sorry if I'm gettig annoying. This just seems to be promising a avenue of thought.

[Volkov]

@Godskook: So this associated class thing. If I eat the LA/RHD for a Dragon and take a Level of Sorcerer, do they stack for my Spellcasting (Familiar can go **** itelf for all I care)? If so is it the LA and RHD, or just the Hit Dice?

Or have I still got it wrong?

Again sorry if I'm gettig annoying. This just seems to be promising a avenue of thought.

Yes if the monster can cast spells as a certain level class, then if it takes levels in said class, the caster level will stack.

[Kobold-Bard]

Yes if the monster can cast spells as a certain level class, then if it takes levels in said class, the caster level will stack.

Sweet. Very Young Blue Dragon Sorcerer here I come.

[The_Snark]

Sweet. Very Young Blue Dragon Sorcerer here I come.

I believe you're misunderstanding him. When you take levels of sorcerer, they stack with the inherent spellcasting you get from being a dragon. If you were a young red dragon, you would cast as a 1st-level sorcerer; if you took a level of sorcerer on top of that, you'd cast as a level 2 sorcerer. (You would also be ECL 21, so this would be rather unimpressive.) You don't get to add your HD to your total spellcaster level, or even your caster level.

What he was saying about associated and nonassociated class levels is true, but completely irrelevant to a PC; this...

So if I play a Dragon I can get two Caster Levels/Level? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you and sounding like a moron, but it's late here and I kind of am one

... is not the case. Your CR doesn't matter if you're a player character—you're stuck with ECL. The associated/nonassociated class level rules are to help the DM determine challenge ratings for monsters with class levels.

[Volkov]

That's why I recommend brass dragons, fairly low ECL as dragons go but they have a high Effective sorcerer level for a dragon.

[Godskook]

@Godskook: So this associated class thing. If I eat the LA/RHD for a Dragon and take a Level of Sorcerer, do they stack for my Spellcasting (Familiar can go **** itelf for all I care)? If so is it the LA and RHD, or just the Hit Dice?

Snark has it. CR is DM tool, not for us players. Pretty sure we deviated because Paulus's comment about 'playing a villain' in the campaign(Associated is part of the CR system).

As far as stacking goes, yes, a dragon with sorcerer levels stacks those levels with any innate casting he has. Problem is, most dragons have hefty LA/RHD that prevent them from being good casters for their ECL. Typically, most of the best choices(low LA and RHD), haven't aged enough to receive their innate casting, so yeah.

[dspeyer]

Your best bet is gestalt.

The lowest ECL true dragon is wyrmling white at 5, but it takes int and cha penalties. The next is wyrmling brass at 6. That's three levels of spells behind and no synergy.

If one side of a gestalt is la+rhd and the other is full casting, you have something viable. Powerful even. The la hurts a little, but that's like being a non-gestalt caster, and the rhd are full of defenses. Brass, Silver and Gold are probably the best choices here, depending on the level of the campaign.

[Kobold-Bard]

I believe you're misunderstanding him. When you take levels of sorcerer, they stack with the inherent spellcasting you get from being a dragon. If you were a young red dragon, you would cast as a 1st-level sorcerer; if you took a level of sorcerer on top of that, you'd cast as a level 2 sorcerer. (You would also be ECL 21, so this would be rather unimpressive.) You don't get to add your HD to your total spellcaster level, or even your caster level.

What he was saying about associated and nonassociated class levels is true, but completely irrelevant to a PC; this...

... is not the case. Your CR doesn't matter if you're a player character—you're stuck with ECL. The associated/nonassociated class level rules are to help the DM determine challenge ratings for monsters with class levels.

Snark has it. CR is DM tool, not for us players. Pretty sure we deviated because Paulus's comment about 'playing a villain' in the campaign(Associated is part of the CR system).

As far as stacking goes, yes, a dragon with sorcerer levels stacks those levels with any innate casting he has. Problem is, most dragons have hefty LA/RHD that prevent them from being good casters for their ECL. Typically, most of the best choices(low LA and RHD), haven't aged enough to receive their innate casting, so yeah.

Aww man

Your best bet is gestalt.

The lowest ECL true dragon is wyrmling white at 5, but it takes int and cha penalties. The next is wyrmling brass at 6. That's three levels of spells behind and no synergy.

If one side of a gestalt is la+rhd and the other is full casting, you have something viable. Powerful even. The la hurts a little, but that's like being a non-gestalt caster, and the rhd are full of defenses. Brass, Silver and Gold are probably the best choices here, depending on the level of the campaign.

Perhaps I shall look into it.

Thanks everybody. This is how I thought it was (except I didn't know the pitiful spellcasting stacked with normal casting). Shame. Thanks all the same.

[Starscream]

A while back I played a sorcerer in a campaign in which the party was all dragons. That's probably why it worked, a human spellcaster in the party would have been much more powerful, but because everyone was a dragon we were decently balanced.

[taltamir]

homebrew it this way...
a typical dragon is a wizard / sorc of its HD... play an extremely young (say, wyrmling) dragon magical prodigy (according to the actual RAW)... as you gain levels in wizard / sorc you gain the normal benefits of this class... as you age your body catches up and you replace your wizard HD / levels for dragon HD and gain dragon abilities. (which, as you know, include spellcasting, so you lose a level to gain the same level again, aka, no change)

Luckily for party balance, nobody really "ages" in typical campaigns. so you just remain the same age category for most of the game... :)