Is my character's attack overpowered?

[Trodon]

Well I was looking at one of my character's attack and it looked overpowered. Here is the character and here is his class. Is his attack overpowered for level 2?

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'm no expert on balance, but I'd say... yes... 4 attacks, with all that damage and create spawn?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Could you please describe the issue in greater depth?

[Trodon]

Could you please describe the issue in greater depth?

No issue, I was just checking if I missed anything and saw how crazy the attack was.

[Gorgondantess]

Ohhhh, boy.
I like that class. Why did you have to try to break it? Seriously. If you think it's overpowered, just change your mutations around so that you can do more than hit things with tentacles. It's not really meant to be used like that...
And no, it's not that overpowered. Powerful, definitely, but not OP. Just edging very close to it.

[Ernir]

Overpowered is making your teammates feel useless or causing the DM balancing problems, not crossing a certain number. That is, it is highly relative.

Has someone been complaining or looked unhappy about what you are doing?

[sonofzeal]

Your BAB is wrong, it should be only 1. That'll drag your attacks down a little.

But yes, it's overpowered compared to most melee characters at that level.

[Kylarra]

Your BAB is wrong, it should be only 1. That'll drag your attacks down a little.

But yes, it's overpowered compared to most melee characters at that level.

He took the evolve combat prowess mutation that increases his BAB by 1.

[Starbuck_II]

Well I was looking at one of my character's attack and it looked overpowered. Here is the character and here is his class. Is his attack overpowered for level 2?

How did you take more than 2 mutations at level 2?
You have Energy Resist, Evolve Combat, More than 2 Tentacles (you should have 2 at most it says), Elemental Attack, and Create Spawn.

Ghostly Form grants Create Spawn. Check.
You have 2 Mutations: how did you get 6 Tentacles, Evolve Combat mutation, and Energy Resist? This seems like you counted wrong.

[sonofzeal]

Sheeesh, that class is rather critically exploitable. A single level dip can compensate for 12 levels in poor-BAB classes? Or get you a +6 base saving throw for fast PrC/feat access? Or get +6 natural armor? Or grow extra arms and boost your Str at the same time?

Gaaaah.... pretty much every mutation listed is significantly exploitable for dipping.

[Milskidasith]

How did you take more than 2 mutations at level 2?
You have Energy Resist, Evolve Combat, More than 2 Tentacles (you should have 2 at most it says), Elemental Attack, and Create Spawn.

Ghostly Form grants Create Spawn. Check.
You have 2 Mutations: how did you get 6 Tentacles, Evolve Combat mutation, and Energy Resist? This seems like you counted wrong.

You get 6 mutations at first level and 4 at each other level.

Basically, it's a class that lets you do whatever you want. Or, you know, dip the hell out of every possible PrC.

[Kylarra]

Sheeesh, that class is rather critically exploitable. A single level dip can compensate for 12 levels in poor-BAB classes? Or get you a +6 base saving throw for fast PrC/feat access? Or get +6 natural armor? Or grow extra arms and boost your Str at the same time?

Gaaaah.... pretty much every mutation listed is significantly exploitable for dipping.

Well, not quite.

the evolutionist cannot have more instances of the same mutation than his mutator level.

Still great for getting whatever prereqs you need though.

[Milskidasith]

Well, not quite.



Still great for getting whatever prereqs you need though.

Ah, well that makes it less exploitable (like how people think Psions can manifest past their ML... >_>)

Still, it's a pretty freaking awesome dip class in that you can meet every possible requirement for every PrC with a few levels dip in it. Great for melee dipping. It's a more... evolved way to enter PrCs. :P

[Kylarra]

Ah, well that makes it less exploitable (like how people think Psions can manifest past their ML... >_>)

Still, it's a pretty freaking awesome dip class in that you can meet every possible requirement for every PrC with a few levels dip in it. Great for melee dipping. It's a more... evolved way to enter PrCs. :P

Yeah, it's still a great way to enter PrCs with weird requirements.

It'd be great for that hidecarved dragon exercise I was doing earlier.

[Tavar]

Actually, I think he has the Natural Weapon mutation 3 times, instead of his 2 maximum. Either that, or he somehow ended up with an extra 2 mutations.

[Eldariel]

For comparison, 32pb level 2 Human Barbarian:

18 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
10 Int
12 Wis
8 Cha


1. Power Attack
Human. Extra Rage
Wolf. Improved Trip

Whirling Frenzy & Pounce


By default, he attacks at +7 (Mw.) for 2d4+6 damage, averaging at 11 damage per hit. By comparison, you attack at +6/+4/+4/+4 for 11 damage primary, 9 on iteratives. If he manages a trip (and he has +9-+11 to the check, something not many creatures on this level can resist), he attacks at +9 for 2d4+10 damage, or 15. Vs. AC 20, he averages 8.25 damage with a trip. Your main tentacle does 3.98 damage and your secondaries altogether 6.95 for a total of 10.93 damage.

So you've got his non-Rage total beat quite soundly on a full attack (though you have some trouble getting full attacks lacking Pounce yet). With Rage, though, he goes up to +9/+9 for 2d4+13, totaling 19.80 vs. AC 20. Without Trip, he does 12.32 which is a few points ahead of you. With 3 Rages per day and comfortable auxillary abilities (especially all the benefits of tripping and reach), I'm fairly sure the Barbarian compares favorably to you. So no, I wouldn't say you're broken damage-wise; a core class with couple of ACFs compares favorably to you (Pounce and Tripping are both big factors; on a charge, Barbarian vastly outperforms the Evolutionist thanks to Pounce).

Now, the "Create Spawn"-part may be something to look out for. Also, being able to use a shield while getting full natural attacks is quite strong on the levels where shields are still handy. The Barbarian above would only match your AC in Rage; out of Rage his lack of Shield would put him 2-1 points behind (2 with a Chain Shirt, 1 with a Breastplate, but speed loss isn't worth it IMO).


I'll quickly do AC 15 for comparison too.

Barbarian:
No Trip, no Rage: 9.07
No Trip, Rage: 21.78
Trip, no Rage: 12.37
Trip, Rage: 29.70

Evolutionist:
Main attack: 6.83
Off-hand attacks: 13.93
Total: 20.76

[ericgrau]

2 attacks at level 2 is also a bit OP. So really it depends how munchkined out the rest of his group is. Oh, he creates spawn too, can do his attacks all day long unlike rage, and what keeps him from taking improved trip and doing even more damage?

[Stormageddon]

That class while cool is way over powered, but hey your DM allowed it. Yeah wow!


If I was the guy who homebrewed it I would disallow anyone taking the class to multiclass and no dipping (not that I see why you would multiclass).

[Trodon]

Has someone been complaining or looked unhappy about what you are doing?

No I was just wondering.

More than 2 Tentacles (you should have 2 at most it says)

You have 2 Mutations: how did you get 6 Tentacles, Evolve Combat mutation, and Energy Resist? This seems like you counted wrong.

I have 4 tentacles read just below the table for the natural attacks is says that you can have 2 pairs of tentacles.

[Tavar]

I have 4 tentacles read just below the table for the natural attacks is says that you can have 2 pairs of tentacles.

But later on you say that you've taken the Tentecles mutation 6 times. I assume that it was upping the damage dice for the attacks, but I'm not sure that's legal, using the class as written.

[Trodon]

But later on you say that you've taken the Tentecles mutation 6 times. I assume that it was upping the damage dice for the attacks, but I'm not sure that's legal, using the class as written.

Yeah I need to change it, I'll do that now.

[Eldariel]

2 attacks at level 2 is also a bit OP. So really it depends how munchkined out the rest of his group is. Oh, he creates spawn too, can do his attacks all day long unlike rage, and what keeps him from taking improved trip and doing even more damage?

His feats are occupied so he cannot fit Improved Trip in. Specifically, Multiattack (borderline necessary to make the iteratives useful; -5 is hefty on level 1) and Ghastly Form (apparently necessary to acquire the stats he's got) occupy his featslots. Also, he obviously lacks a Strength-boost like Rage, making Trip a bit weaker either way.

Also, it's worth noting that he's got ½ BAB by default so chances are he'll fall behind unless he keeps investing Mutations into it so this seems like something of a strong point. But yeah, he does beat not-raging Barbarian in damage on a full attack, so it's not weak. It just seems like that's all he can do (outside making spawns) and still loses to a Barbarian 3/day and has less combat versatility, so I'd be vary of stamping it "OP" right off the bat (just "strong" seems more appropriate), since things are always "OP compared to..." rather than in a vacuum. With optimized melee builds, it looks fair, but in a world of Core Melee, it looks too strong.


I checked the spawns, it's Zombie spawns and HD equal to Mutator-level, so quite weak (given how weak Zombies are and the fact that it's HD=Level, not 2xHD=Level like e.g. Animate Dead), especially now.

[Zergrusheddie]

It's a really interesting class and is great by itself but I can see some hideous problems with just using it as a dip class or just combining other classes. The real problem with your character, however, is that at higher levels your damage is only going to be a few dice when the Barbarian is Power Attacking in the teens.

How are you going to overcome DR? At a quick glance, I didn't see a way to actually get your attacks to be considered Magical so incorporeal creatures will eat you alive. Extremely interesting class.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

[Tavar]

At some point he could take the spell-like ability mutation to get Greater Magic Weapon as a spell like ability X times per day.

[Trodon]

It's a really interesting class and is great by itself but I can see some hideous problems with just using it as a dip class or just combining other classes. The real problem with your character, however, is that at higher levels your damage is only going to be a few dice when the Barbarian is Power Attacking in the teens.

How are you going to overcome DR? At a quick glance, I didn't see a way to actually get your attacks to be considered Magical so incorporeal creatures will eat you alive. Extremely interesting class.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

Yeah I was thinking of that, i'll see if the dm can homebrew some leather wrappings for my tentacles to consider them as +1 or something.

[Eldariel]

Yeah I was thinking of that, i'll see if the dm can homebrew some leather wrappings for my tentacles to consider them as +1 or something.

I suggest bumming Greater Magic Fang from a friendly Druid. Takes only one casting to get +1 for all your weapons and it's cheap enough to Permanency (though you'll hate Dispel after investing XP into that...). Party Druid would obviously rock most.

[Trodon]

I suggest bumming Greater Magic Fang from a friendly Druid. Takes only one casting to get +1 for all your weapons and it's cheap enough to Permanency (though you'll hate Dispel after investing XP into that...). Party Druid would obviously rock most.

That's good but it's homebrew only base classes.

[Eldariel]

That's good but it's homebrew only base classes.

Well, bum it from an NPC Druid then. Surely there are NPC characters of standard base classes? Either way, I find Greater Magic Fang is like to be the cheapest alternative here.

Though I recall there's some Druid item that gives you +1 Enhancement bonus to all natural attacks...maybe in Complete Champion or Divine. Or Magic Item Compendium. I'll try to dig it up at some point.

[Zaydos]

Amulet of Mighty Fists, page 246 of the DMG. Grants a +1 to +5 enhancement bonus to attacks with unarmed strikes and natural weapons.

[Trodon]

Amulet of Mighty Fists, page 246 of the DMG. Grants a +1 to +5 enhancement bonus to attacks with unarmed strikes and natural weapons.

That is a great idea, thanks.