[3.5] need help with my dex based fighter

[Darkameoba]

Hey guys, how goes? Im looking for a bit of help with a dex based melee fighter im gonna be playing soon (i normaly make casters, so its all new to me realy). reason im asking for help is that the group im playing with are all min maxers/optimizers and the GM plans the encounters thusly, normaly this isnt a problem, but like i said i dont know melee fighters all that well so im gonna need a hand here just to stay alive.

I wanted the character's focus to be on dex (yeah i know a bit of a odd choice for melee, but its for flavor) and to use two weapons, possibly a longsword/short sword combo, and to start out as a fighter and go into tempest but im open for suggestions. trick is we are restricted to human and are starting at level 1. what sort of build could you guys recommend, like what magic items should i be seeking, and what should i be doing magic weapon wise? and were should i be goin with feats i really am outa my element here.

Please excuse the terrible grammar and spelling and thanks for the help in advance.

[Vangor]

Suggestion is to pursue a Dex/Wis based Swordsage with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade.

[D-naras]

You could always try for this. It looks pretty cool and as DEX focused as possible.

[Darkameoba]

thanks guys, anyone else got any suggestions? i sorta like the thread you linked D-naras its defiantly in the right direction.

[AslanCross]

What books are allowed? That would be a good starting point. I love melee characters, but my advice is usually Tome of Battle-dependent.

[SurlySeraph]

For a Dex-based fighter, you want to be using 2-weapon fighting. For two-weapon fighting, you want to have a good source of bonus damage on your attacks. If you're using Tome of Battle there's some very good support for two-weapon-fighters; if not, you can make a simple and decently powerful build using the Sneak Attack Fighter alternate class feature (it's a Fighter that gets Sneak Attack like a rogue instead of bonus feats. Pretty simple).

Even if you're not using Tome of Battle classes, you can take a few feats from it to strengthen a DEX-based fighter. Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) effectively lets you go invisible for one round, letting you get sneak attack damage against a prepared opponent. Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) gives you +2d6 Sneak Attack damage, Shadow Blade adds your Dexterity bonus to damage in addition to strength, and Gloom Razor does a whole bunch of sneak-attack-related things. All of these are all good choices.

Oh, and you *must* take Weapon Finesse to be an effective Dex-based fighter. One option would be to take one to three levels in the Swashbuckler class, which gives Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level, and lets you add your Intelligence bonus to weapon damage at 3rd level. Weapon Finesse doesn't work with longswords, so go with a rapier and short sword.

As for your weapon, you want as many damage-boosting enhancements as possible. The Assassination (+1 enhancement for +1d6 Sneak Attack) and Deadly Precision (+2 for +2d6 Sneak Attack) are good choices, though if you expect to go up against undead and constructs a lot you may not want to be this reliant on Sneak Attack. Otherwise just go with Flaming, Frost, Shock, and other random extra damage enhancements.

[Kaiyanwang]

HAve you access to Drow of the Underdark? there is a fighter ACF that allow to swap medium, heavy armor and shields proficiencies for the ability to add your dexterity modifier on damage against flat-footed enemies.

I use it in gestalts with rogue, not recomended in most fighter buids - but since you go tempest..

[Killer Angel]

trick is we are restricted to human and are starting at level 1.

Start save your money for the celestial armor.
It's Core, so you shouldn't have problem.

[JellyPooga]

Well a better place to start than Fighter is obviously Swashbuckler...more skill points and your 'bonus feat' is Weapon Finesse. A must for the Dex-fighter. Taking Swashbuckler to level 3 for Int to Damage isn't a bad idea, but then it's not a particularly good one either, so I'd leave Swashbuckler at level 1 and grab your 2 level Fighter dip...So you're level 3 now with Weapon Finesse, 2 Fighter Bonus Feats and 3 other Feats. If you're looking at TWF, I'd advise one of the Weapon Style feats...if that's Sword as your primary, that means either dagger or axe as secondary. I'd advise Shortsword and Handaxe. So your feats look this:

1: Weapon Finesse, TWF, Combat Expertise
2: Weapon Focus (Shortsword)
3: Weapon Focus (Handaxe), Improved Trip

You're only 1 feat away from High-Sword-Low-Axe at this point. Unfortunately, Weapon Style feats can't be taken as Fighter Bonus feats, otherwise a dip into Psychic Warrior would net you exactly that.

Alternatively, you could use the Martial Rogue variant from UA...thus:

1: Martial Rogue - TWF, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2: Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse
3: Martial Rogue - Weapon Focus (Shortsword), Weapon Focus (Handaxe)

That would get you a lot more skill points to play with and Evasion at the cost of Fort (though you gain Ref), 1 point of BAB and HP. Depending on how your DM adjudicates the Bonus Feats gained from Martial Rogue and Fighter, you can follow this with 2 levels of Fighter to get another 2 Bonus Feats. It might be an idea to mix that up a bit though to take your second level of Rogue at 5th level if only to get easier access to max rank skills.

From this point, you should qualify for a Prestige Class. If you are indeed aiming at Tempest, then your last two bonus feats were Dodge and Mobility. Even so, you're still 2 feats away from meeting the Prerequisites for Tempest and you still haven't taken High-Sword-Low-Axe yet, so we're a ways off yet.

Here's an interesting thing: If instead of a Shortsword, you take a Scimitar, you're only 1 point of BAB away from qualifying for Dervish, which allows you to treat a Scimitar as a light weapon. So, with this in mind, let's add another level of Swashbuckler (+1 Reflex is better than Trap Sense or nothing) and High-Sword-Low-Axe as our Lvl.6 Feat and from there we take Dervish.

6: Swashbuckler - H-S-L-A
7: Dervish
8: Dervish
9: Dervish - Improved TWF, Spring Attack (Dervish Bonus Feat)

From here it's up to you. You now qualify for Tempest if you wish to enter that, or you can continue with Dervish. My advice would be for Dervish...it's a class that's simply made of awesomesauce.

[Darkameoba]

What books are allowed? That would be a good starting point. I love melee characters, but my advice is usually Tome of Battle-dependent.

We have the folowing books available: PHB 1&2, DMG 1&2, tome of battle, unearthed arcana, complete adventurer, master of the wild, complete arcane, complete divine, the iron kingdoms weapon modifications and feats. um, i cant think of anything else.



JellyPooga im loving the martial rogue build

[BobVosh]

A favorite of mine is still scout + fighter into dervish. Dervish will let you TWF with weapon finesse on scimitars. Fighter gets you a few extra needed feats and BAB that haunts TWFers everywhere.

Also being mainly core helps. Human is great for this build.

[JellyPooga]

A favorite of mine is still scout + fighter into dervish. Dervish will let you TWF with weapon finesse on scimitars. Fighter gets you a few extra needed feats and BAB that haunts TWFers everywhere.

Also being mainly core helps. Human is great for this build.

Yeah, a Scout//Dervish in gestalt is aewsome...Dervish Dance + Extraordinary Freedom of Movement + Skirmish = Awesome!

[Darkameoba]

scout/dervish does sound pretty awesome, would you recomend some levels of fighter in there or just straight up scout till dervish?

[JellyPooga]

scout/dervish does sound pretty awesome, would you recomend some levels of fighter in there or just straight up scout till dervish?

Fighter would help you qualify a bit quicker with the bonus Feats and BAB, but you'll lose out on Skirmish damage. One option might be to go Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter...Ranger will give you TWF and a boost to your BAB and Swift Hunter will give you some valuable damage bonus vs. your Favoured Enemies by allowing Ranger and Scout to stack for FE and Skirmish. Something like...

1: Scout - Dodge, Mobility
2: Ranger
3: Ranger - WF (Scimitar), TWF
4: Scout
5: Scout
6: Scout - Swift Hunter
7: Dervish

I think that qualifies and will get you 2 Favoured Enemies and (+2d6/+1) Skirmish (which qualifies you for Improved Skirmish, I believe).

[Darkameoba]

sounds good. now, is the tempest class just not worth it in the long run?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You need some way of moving at least 10 feet per round and getting off full attacks.

[Boci]

You need some way of moving at least 10 feet per round and getting off full attacks.

Travel devotion is the most commonly used.

[JellyPooga]

sounds good. now, is the tempest class just not worth it in the long run?

The net result of Tempest is about the equivalent of 4, maybe 5 feats that are generally considered sub-par anyway.

Tempest Defence: +3 AC isn't astonishing. It's technically better than a heavy shield, but when you consider that you can't improve that figure any further (like you can with a shield gaining an enhancement bonus), it's not that impressive. On the plus side, it's an untyped bonus, so you don't lose it if you're flat-footed and it works against touch attacks (strangely enough).

Ambidexterity: +2 to hit. Handy if you're up against high-AC opponents I guess, but it's effectively the same as Greater Weapon Focus...not that great when you consider that Rage does the same and gives you +2 damage as well.

Two-Weapon Versatility: Useful if you have a lot of those feats. If it allowed you to qualify for a Weapon Style Feat without having to take Weapon Focus twice, then this might be a really good feature. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

Two-Weapon Spring Attack: Not that great really. Perhaps if you were going to take Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz and your DM alowed you to use them in conjunction, it might make it worthwhile, but as a standalone, it's not all that great...it still doesn't make Spring Attack actually that good.

[AslanCross]

I would go with either Swordsage specializing in Tiger Claw and Desert Wind for quick attacks, Scout for skill points and Skirmish, and PRCing eventually into Dervish. Tempest is really not worth it. You'll get more good abilities out of Dervish.

You could also use the legendary Jack B. Quick build, which uses High Sword Low Axe, Double Hit, Robilar's Gambit and Improved Trip to set off a deadly AOO chain. A Swordsage or Warblade with Rapid Counter could add even more to that.

[Kaiyanwang]

I would go with either Swordsage specializing in Tiger Claw and Desert Wind for quick attacks, Scout for skill points and Skirmish, and PRCing eventually into Dervish. Tempest is really not worth it. You'll get more good abilities out of Dervish.

Couldn't be an issue the low BAB + TWF, at this point? better combine an high BAB + medium BAB class, maybe..

EDIT: I wrote low, I meant medium

[Darrin]

Couldn't be an issue the low BAB + TWF, at this point? better combine an high BAB + medium BAB class, maybe..

EDIT: I wrote low, I meant medium

No. The BAB you lose you get back by reducing TWF penalties to zero. You can dip into Swordsage for 2-4 levels and into Bloodclaw master for 2-4 levels, and so long as you're using Tiger Claw weapons, the effect on your BAB should be the same as if you went into a full BAB class for all those levels. And everything else you get from Swordsage + Bloodclaw Master (maneuvers, stances, full Str damage on offhand attacks) is stupendously better than anything you get out of Tempest.

[Godskook]

No. The BAB you lose you get back by reducing TWF penalties to zero. You can dip into Swordsage for 2-4 levels and into Bloodclaw master for 2-4 levels, and so long as you're using Tiger Claw weapons or daggers, the effect on your BAB should be the same as if you went into a full BAB class for all those levels. And everything else you get from Swordsage + Bloodclaw Master (maneuvers, stances, full Str damage on offhand attacks) is stupendously better than anything you get out of Tempest.

Fixed that for you, and its an important fix, or I'd let it go. Only two weapon styles are 'optimal' for dex-based swordsages, and those are unarmed(with the variant) and daggers.

[Darkameoba]

So, go swordsage/scout, going for high sword low axe then go into dervish then?

[Fluffles]

Warblade/Swordsage/Mo9.

Use your Warblade levels to get Diamond Mind and Iron Heart Maneuvers, use the Sword sage for Shadow Blade, Setting Sun, and Tiger Claw. When you get into Mo9, continue on with Tiger claw and Shadow Blade.

For feats, you will definitely want the one that lets you add dex to damage with Shadow Blade favored Weapons, along with weapon finesse (So you're looking at a short sword).

If you are going to dip, do it before you start any of the ToB classes. You'll want a higher starting Initiator Level :)

My. $0.02

[AslanCross]

Couldn't be an issue the low BAB + TWF, at this point? better combine an high BAB + medium BAB class, maybe..

EDIT: I wrote low, I meant medium

That is true. Weapon Finesse could help him catch up.

[Indon]

Person_Man has been posting some really helpful reference guides for this sort of thing on this forum.

[Starbuck_II]

Travel devotion is the most commonly used.

Shouldn't he get 1 level in Cleric than to get turning?

[Darrin]

Warblade/Swordsage/Mo9.

Eh... you want to be careful with Mo9. Like Tempest, there's a lot of semi-useless prereqs that may not be worth it. You can pick up Imp. Unarmed Strike with the Unarmed Swordsage variant, so that helps a little. A one-level dip into Cleric can get you Blindfight (Darkness domain) and Improved Initiative (Time domain). But if you're dipping cleric... might as well go into Ruby Knight Vindicator.

[Eldariel]

Eh... you want to be careful with Mo9. Like Tempest, there's a lot of semi-useless prereqs that may not be worth it. You can pick up Imp. Unarmed Strike with the Unarmed Swordsage variant, so that helps a little. A one-level dip into Cleric can get you Blindfight (Darkness domain) and Improved Initiative (Time domain). But if you're dipping cleric... might as well go into Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Unlike Tempest though, it's pretty damn strong; most of the feats from Warblade bonuses are pretty bad but you can go picking the prereqs pretty easily. Also, the bonuses enable further raping of action economy with Dual Stance & Counter Stance and some insane things like Mastery of the Nine with full attack-involving Strikes.

Also, access to all 3 of the power schools along with a good two stances from high levels (multiple 8th level stances are hard to acquire otherwise and yet that's the level that contains Immortal Fortitude and Stance of Alacrity, IMHO the best ones in the book, especially with Counter Stance).


Master of the Nine is hard to enter, but for a good reason (though you better request partial BAB as a 5-level class with medium BAB is just eww).

[Fluffles]

Eh... you want to be careful with Mo9. Like Tempest, there's a lot of semi-useless prereqs that may not be worth it. You can pick up Imp. Unarmed Strike with the Unarmed Swordsage variant, so that helps a little. A one-level dip into Cleric can get you Blindfight (Darkness domain) and Improved Initiative (Time domain). But if you're dipping cleric... might as well go into Ruby Knight Vindicator.

You can get both Imp. Init & Blind fight as your warblade bonus feats, And as your first level feat and human bonus take dodge and mobility. Tadaa!

And Mo9 pwns Tempest