Familiar of a Familiar - Limits on what can gain class levels

[Fiery Diamond]

So, we've all seen builds where an awakened animal takes character classes for the heck of it. We also know that an awakened animal cannot serve as an animal companion according to the PHB (which I think is a bit silly, but...). An animal companion cannot become a familiar and vice versa. But although "only a normal, unmodified animal can become a familiar," there is no statement of whether said familiar can be modified after it has become a familiar, by, for example, taking class levels. (At least not that I can find. If there is, point it out, but I don't see it. Forget RAI, fun trumps RAI anyway.) Potentially, then, since familiars get to be rather intelligent, you could have a familiar who was also a wizard. And its familiar could also be a wizard... and so on. As a DM (assuming that (a) player(s) wanted to do this for either story reasons or for the amusement factor or to fill out a group without many players rather than for cheese reasons) what restrictions/guidelines/limitations would you place on this? Would you allow the concept at all? If you did, would you draw a line somewhere? Where would you draw it? Would you be more inclined to allow it if the wizard familiar(s) was(were) being played by other players rather than everything by one player?

Discuss.

(oh, and this is hypothetical...I'm not actually playing in a game where I'm trying to convince a DM to allow this. As a DM myself, I'd probably only allow it if different players were running the various familiars. I might allow a really good roleplayer to have a familiar with a familiar by himself, but I wouldn't let it go further than that, and I'd only do that if I thought that he would go out of his way to not overshadow the other players).

[Meek]

I wouldn't allow it. The rules base of it is utterly dodgy, and honestly, what's there to gain from this roleplay-wise? What's the point, why is your character doing this? You have a circus of low level wizards. Charming, I'm sure, but it adds nothing to the game.

[Godskook]

That recursion would lead to 'experience bombs'(in a bad way). 1HP familiars would develop really fast, and they're just liabilities at pretty much any level.

The best familiar I know of is the familiar companion of the Arcane Heirophant. Take a 'normal' animal, and give him all the combined benefits of being a familiar and an animal companion. Ask your DM how this interacts with feats like 'improved familiar'.

[Vizzerdrix]

I have a third party book that talks about doing this. Basicly, your familiars Int and Nat. armor keeps advancing, but they gain a few class abilities instead.


Encyclopaedia Arcane - Familiars put out by Mongoose publishing.

(Note:Spells and Spellcraft from the Legends & Lairs books have some interesting options for familiars starting on page 135)

[Riffington]

Before you are permitted to do it, you must read this.

[taltamir]

"only a normal, unmodified animal can become a familiar,"

unless you take improved familiar, undead familiar, construct familiar, celestial familiar, dragon familiar, etc...

Then you can take anything and everything as familiar. it can be sentient, it can be magical beast, it can be anything really.

Improved familiar from the PHB lets you take:
1. magical beast familiars
2. Sentient humanoid outsider familiar
3. a familiar that shares your type

The rest are not core, but let you take almost anything else as familiar too.

[Dr Bwaa]

I had a low level half-orc VoP druid (who, as part of his VoP, never wore clothes of any sort, nor carried anything at all, but that's another matter) with a raven as an "animal companion." The raven, of course, was fully sentient and so got none of the animal companion bonuses, but was actually a polymorphed wizard trying to use the druid to his own ends. I've never gotten to play him, but it would have been incredibly fun to role-play (no one wants a VoP druid in their games for fear of breakage, but I promise I'd be good! I made the character sheet after I made the backstory! It just happened!).
So that's certainly not quite the same, but given that I wasn't controlling the NPC raven and he wasn't getting any bonuses, I think it would be allowed. I certainly would (and I'd allow a PC's familiar to be awakened and gain class levels, if it had a very good RP reason to happen).

[taltamir]

ok polymorph doesn't count, you can do anything with a polymorph :)

[sadie]

Familiars are more than just pets, they have a deep connection to their master. Surely, if such a connection was then forged with another familiar, it would weaken the original connection. I see two outcomes of this: either the familiar parts from their old master and graduates to an NPC (possibly a cohort), or they don't get a familiar.

One way to sidestep it might be to transfer the features normally associated with a familiar to their master instead - essentially the PC and animal are each other's familiar. For example, the familiar could cast touch attacks through their master instead of the other way round.

[PhoenixRivers]

The real problem is that a Familiar becomes a magical beast, which makes it ineligible for Awaken.

Also, I believe that the Familiar's int score disqualifies it.

[Zaydos]

I think the idea is just using its familiar Int to qualify for classes. I've thought about allowing this for high level wizards before, but decided against it. It is interesting though. I love familiars and I like the idea of giving them more options and giving them some way to actually contribute (short of UMD wands for imps and the wonderful familiar companions of Arcane Hierophants) at high levels would be wonderful.

[Myrmex]

Be a psion with a psicrystal. Have your psicrystal take leadership. Have his cohort be a psion. With a psicrystal. That takes leadership. Also, all psions also take leadership to get more psions.

[Set]

The only time I used something like this, was in the case of familiars who had survived their master (or, simply, lost track of them after they got Imprisoned or Temporal Stasised or turned to stone or something).

I'd allow it as an Improved Familiar option, to give your monkey a level of Rogue or something. His hit points / HD, etc. would still be based off of his masters attributes, but he'd still benefit from skill ranks, class abilities, etc.

Awakened animals with barbarian levels may not be able to be animal companions any longer, but they sure do make for fine allies (or even cohorts, perhaps). They start out friendly to you, and if your Druid has any sort of interpersonal skills, he can still ask them for favors from time to time. Awakened trees with adept or druid levels make for neat Cooperative Magic / Circle Casting potential. (Okay, I've got 25 1st level adept trees aiding this spellcasting...)

[Zaydos]

I did do the awakened animal allies things; a former familiar companion (rendered legible for animal only spells due to being a familiar companion) ranger (with some ACFs from Dragon Magazine that got it a stat to AC and DR I think) who was... weaker as a cohort than a familiar companion. Also an awakened triceratops that had 14 Int and became the commander of the town watch; it almost got killed by kineticists.

I'd agree with the improved familiar option, or make a separate feat for it (I'd just use Improved Familiar) but balancing it would take some work. Shouldn't be worse than Leadership.

[bosssmiley]

Potentially, then, since familiars get to be rather intelligent, you could have a familiar who was also a wizard. And its familiar could also be a wizard... and so on.

Familiars, animal companions, paladinic warhorses and the like are class features, not NPCs in their own right. Although an advanced familiar may have innate spell-casting capability (Imp and Pseudodragon are the typical examples) giving them PC class levels in their own right when they are a level-granted adjunct to another character is generally just a bit tacky. Familiars already have advancement rules.

And yes, I hate Thrallherd builds and think the Leadership feat as written should die in a ditch.

[Prime32]

Be a psion with a psicrystal. Have your psicrystal take leadership. Have his cohort be a psion. With a psicrystal. That takes leadership. Also, all psions also take leadership to get more psions.

Each of the psions also has ten levels in thrallherd. And each of the psicrystals has the Wild Talent and Psicrystal Affinity feats.

[Burley]

I would say that when an animal becomes a familiar, it is considered an altered animal, and therefore, unable to be awakened. You are adding abilities (like spell storing and telepathic bond) onto the thing, as well as increasing its saves and natural armor higher that they would normally be.

Also, if you can just pick an animal willy-nilly and say "It's a 1HD creature that's been unaltered by some magics," may as well pick a human as a familiar. We're all a part of the animal kingdom.

[Stegyre]

And each of the psicrystals has the Wild Talent and Psicrystal Affinity feats.

This has been previously addressed: it does not work: a character (or whatever) must have an actual manifester level to take the Psicrystal Affinity feat. No feats will grant manifester levels unless you already have at least one, so unless you modify rules to allow psicrystals to take character levels, this plan never reaches square one.

[Willis888]

That sounds like a great way to fill out an underpowered party . . . with NPCs. I might get to use that someday

The players might have problems (by DM rule) finding creatures that are predisposed to becoming wizards should they be awakened.

[Myrmex]

This has been previously addressed: it does not work: a character (or whatever) must have an actual manifester level to take the Psicrystal Affinity feat. No feats will grant manifester levels unless you already have at least one, so unless you modify rules to allow psicrystals to take character levels, this plan never reaches square one.

Practiced Manifester.

[Starbuck_II]

Practiced Manifester.

PM only works if you have a manifester level.
Null + any number is still null.

[Keshay]

Slight problem:

To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

How exactly are the animal companions/Familiars expected to cast spells with verbal, somatic or material components?

A Raven may be able to speak an appropriate language, but most other basic familiars would never be able to make the correct noises, much less gesture in any meaningful fashion. How do they carry material components, then manipulate them with no prehensile appendages?

I suppose you could xp railroad your familiar up in levels, finally getting them, Eschew Materials, Silent Spell and Still Spell, then you can cast 1st level spells from a third level slot, so long as no components cost anything.

So all you have to do is get to third level casting nothing but spells with no or just material components, then get to fifth with a similarly truncated list of potential spells.

Also, Wizard is out since most animals can not manipulate pages in a book, much less write, or carry said book in a meaningful fashion. Additionally, nowhere does it say familiars can read (ravens' ability to speak is a supernatural ability, not a skill so that does not apply), nor do they gain skill ranks, so whatever class they wanted to take levels in would need to be Int-based, full progression caster that grants a familiar, but not be a wizard... I guess the 1* familiar could eventually take the feat to get a familiar, but really, at lvl 11 what no component/Material only spells are going to be cast that make a difference?

[Another_Poet]

I would allow an awakened animal with the Improved Familiar feat.

I would allow an awakened animal to earn XP and advance by class level, but I would not allow it to do this and also advance as a familiar.

That, to me, is really the crux of the problem here. Familiars and animal companions gain various benefits based on their master's level, which in my mind is a shortcut so players don't have to track XP for their animals and worry about their animals getting a share of their own XP. It's not supposed to be in addition to gaining XP; it's supposed to be instead of.

So I would allow any given animal (or character, for that matter) one and only one method of advancement. If it starts gaining XP to get class levels, that is a permanent lifelong choice and it will never again advance as a familiar.

With this restriction, I see no mechanical or game balance issues with allowing a familiar to have a familiar. Thematically, you could say that in order for an awakened owl wizard to gain a familar it has to "graduate" from its relationship to its old master, losing its familiar status and gaining a familiar of its own. This is cool fluff, but not necessary mechanically. If you go this route I would either have the familiar (and its familiar) become NPCs controlled by the DM and fade into the background, or require the Leadership feat to take them on as cohorts and keep them with the party.

[Keshay]

How do you reconcile that fact that owls have no hands, and therefore no ability to gesture meaningfully, or manipulate components and books?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Make it a raven bard, make it use bard song most of the time, and get the feat Obtain Familiar for its familiar?

Could you make a familiar into a half-golem and then Maximized Awaken it? Or no? Haven't read Awaken Construct in a while.

[Another_Poet]

How do you reconcile that fact that owls have no hands, and therefore no ability to gesture meaningfully, or manipulate components and books?

That's the player's problem to solve. I was simply stating that I would allow them to try, as long as they understand that the animal may never again advance as a familiar once it chooses to advance using XP and class levels.

The fact that an owl, by virtue of its anatomy would make a crappy wizard is not the GM's problem to fix. If the player wants a crappy wizard following them, that's their call.

In any case I used owl as a random example. An awakened Monkey should be able to do everything a normal wizard does, except look dignified and intimidating. :)

[toddex]

unless you take improved familiar, undead familiar, construct familiar, celestial familiar, dragon familiar, etc...

Then you can take anything and everything as familiar. it can be sentient, it can be magical beast, it can be anything really.

Improved familiar from the PHB lets you take:
1. magical beast familiars
2. Sentient humanoid outsider familiar
3. a familiar that shares your type

The rest are not core, but let you take almost anything else as familiar too.

Wait so you can have a human familiar!? AHAHA!

[Tiki Snakes]

That's the player's problem to solve. I was simply stating that I would allow them to try, as long as they understand that the animal may never again advance as a familiar once it chooses to advance using XP and class levels.

The fact that an owl, by virtue of its anatomy would make a crappy wizard is not the GM's problem to fix. If the player wants a crappy wizard following them, that's their call.

In any case I used owl as a random example. An awakened Monkey should be able to do everything a normal wizard does, except look dignified and intimidating. :)

Given the reputation of the class, I could see the idea of having a crappy feathered wizard following you around, with just a little work, could indeed be much more useful than having a mere familiar. :)

[Godskook]

It warrants mentioning that awakened animals can't be familiars either, as per the SRD(I just re-read the spell).

[Another_Poet]

It warrants mentioning that awakened animals can't be familiars either, as per the SRD(I just re-read the spell).

Yeah, but if a player really wanted it and took Improved Familiar, I'll allow it.