Making Due: An Optimisers Challenge

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Soulborn? With bonus style points for use of Incarnate Blade or Incarnum Champion.

No, let's leave Incarnum out of this, since I don't have the book.

I have updated all submissions to this point, and made comments about their eligibility in the OP.

[Grynning]

I've noticed that a couple of the builds are kinda evading the spirit of the challenge if not the law, as they are dipping heavily into tier 3 classes. I was kinda hoping for some interesting builds that didn't rely on a ToB/Factotum MC (both of which multiclass well and bring significantly more to the table than the Tier 5 parts of the build).

I'm working on a Paladin/Knight/Fighter (maybe with Monk thrown in) focused on Mounted Combat and Shield/lance use, but I've been out feasting and drinking all weekend so my brain is a bit fuzzy. Hopefully I'll have something banged out by the 31st.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I've noticed that a couple of the builds are kinda evading the spirit of the challenge if not the law, as they are dipping heavily into tier 3 classes. I was kinda hoping for some interesting builds that didn't rely on a ToB/Factotum MC (both of which multiclass well and bring significantly more to the table than the Tier 5 parts of the build).

I'm working on a Paladin/Knight/Fighter (maybe with Monk thrown in) focused on Mounted Combat and Shield/lance use, but I've been out feasting and drinking all weekend so my brain is a bit fuzzy. Hopefully I'll have something banged out by the 31st.

Fighter2/Paladin5/KnightX?

[Grynning]

Fighter2/Paladin5/KnightX?

Something like that, though I was trying to figure out a way to dip a monk variant that gets feats I want in there and not wear armor (because the idea of an unarmored cavalry man was amusing to me). Unfortunately, I think the Serenity feat is banned (since it's from the Dragon Compendium), which means I can't be all Wis/Str like I'd like.

Edit: I forgot that Knight's challenge needs some Charisma. eh, no big deal.

Use the reach of a lance with Stand Still to be an ok tank, use mounted charging goodness for damage, etc.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've noticed that a couple of the builds are kinda evading the spirit of the challenge if not the law, as they are dipping heavily into tier 3 classes. I was kinda hoping for some interesting builds that didn't rely on a ToB/Factotum MC (both of which multiclass well and bring significantly more to the table than the Tier 5 parts of the build).

I'm working on a Paladin/Knight/Fighter (maybe with Monk thrown in) focused on Mounted Combat and Shield/lance use, but I've been out feasting and drinking all weekend so my brain is a bit fuzzy. Hopefully I'll have something banged out by the 31st.

Yea, I've noticed that too...

Perhaps extra points will be given to those builds who do not resort to such tactics.

[Grynning]

Oh btw - Gralamin's Flurry works with his mindblades because he took the feat to turn it into a Monk's Spade, which is a monk weapon. Don't know if he can still throw them that way.

Why are web sources banned? They are official WotC articles, not from 3rd party sources.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh btw - Gralamin's Flurry works with his mindblades because he took the feat to turn it into a Monk's Spade, which is a monk weapon. Don't know if he can still throw them that way.

Why are web sources banned? They are official WotC articles, not from 3rd party sources.

Mostly because I'm too worried about some of the other shennanigans from web sources, and I feel it does rather break the spirit.

In fact, I'm tempted to flat outright ban ToB classes (though not feats), as it is clear that they synergize too well, and even a small dip can contribute much more than everything else combined.

[Ernir]

Ernir has submitted Allaria the Peacekeeper. He mentions significant damage output, but I don't see how with Vow of Peace *AND* Vow of Nonviolence.

Nonlethal damage output only.

In a... less than exalted campaign, the VoN/VoPeace combo would definitely have to be dumped. But I am playing in a campaign where my character always* drags the baddies to the authorities to face proper judgement rather than CDGing them on the spot, and it works there**. =/



*Now he does, anyway. We had a rather unfortunate incident involving the accidental murder of a local authority figure, he has been careful since then...

**The guy still has issues. But it's because the character is a bit of an ass, not because he deals nonlethal.

[sonofzeal]

Mostly because I'm too worried about some of the other shennanigans from web sources, and I feel it does rather break the spirit.

In fact, I'm tempted to flat outright ban ToB classes (though not feats), as it is clear that they synergize too well, and even a small dip can contribute much more than everything else combined.

Eh, don't ban it. But we do need that whole "3/4 in Tier 5-6 class" thing, and the "build needs to utilize what the Tier 5-6 class gives" thing. A CW Samurai 15 / Warblade 5 could be really effective as a Warblade, but wouldn't really get full points for being a Samurai.

Something you could do on this front would be to try to pick one or two "top" builds for each class, the ones that uses it the best. ToB dips wouldn't disqualify you, then, but similar results without would certainly be more in the spirit of the challenge and get better marks. Basically, reward the good rather than punish the bad.

[dspeyer]

In fact, I'm tempted to flat outright ban ToB classes (though not feats), as it is clear that they synergize too well, and even a small dip can contribute much more than everything else combined.

ToB does synergize amazingly well. A dip in wizard never added that much to a build. Mostly it's the half-levels for initiator level thing.

I figured the key was to keep the essence of the build in line with the essence of the class. Essences are subjective, and sometimes debatable, but often they can be clearly seen.

[Indon]

So, I made a Healer build. Problem is, I'm not sure if it works.

Spoiler

Show

CG Human Warmage 1/Fighter 1/Healer 18. Max Wisdom and have 10 Charisma, and otherwise select Clericzilla stats.

Feats:
Human: Flexible Mind (Dragon #326) - Makes Know(Religion) and one other skill always class skills.
Level 1: Arcane Disciple: War (Correlon Larethian) - Lets you cast War domain spells as arcane spells.
Level 3: Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325) - Lets you cast any of your divine spells as arcane spells or vice versa at -1 CL.
Level 6: Arcane Disciple: Protection
Level 9: Arcane Disciple: Chaos
Level 12: Arcane Disciple: Good

Equipment: Nonmetal heavy armor (such as dragonhide) and shield, ample wands of curative spells.

The Healer is a full caster with a heavily restricted spell list. So, I expanded the spell list! This healer has access to four domains worth of spells in addition to their standard list, including gems such as Divine Power, though at -1 Caster Level. Also, you don't get 9'th level casting until level 19.

Dare I say, I think this character is competitive with Tier 3 classes. Sadly, I had to take my first level in a Tier 4 class to make it work by level 12 - using Fighter or Healer as the first class and abiding strictly by the 75% low-tier rule for each level would make it take much longer to fill out the build. I can rewrite it with that in mind if that's necessary to make it qualify.

The trick is pretty simple: You start with some source of arcane casting (couldn't find a Tier 5 class that gave me an Arcane spell), get Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Arcana) as class skills, and start taking Arcane Disciple. In this case, I chose Corellon Larethian, as Flexible Mind requires a Chaotic alignment and Healer requires a good one.

Then, you take Alternate Source Spell, which allows you to cast the domain spells you have access to as divine spells. Then, you take Healer levels - the Healer being a full Divine caster.

The problem is, I don't think being able to prepare those spells as divine spells lets me memorize them with Healer slots. I'm not sure, though, since it's a somewhat obscure mechanic I don't have experience with. So, anyway, does it work?

Barring this trick working, there might be some way to enhance the Healer's spell list using a level or two of Cleric (specifically, I'm contemplating some abuse of Customize Domain).

[sonofzeal]

The problem is, I don't think being able to prepare those spells as divine spells lets me memorize them with Healer slots. I'm not sure, though, since it's a somewhat obscure mechanic I don't have experience with. So, anyway, does it work?

I don't think so. Arcane vs Divine don't come into the equation; if someone multiclasses Wizard/Sorcerer, their Wiz and Sorc spell slots don't overlap. They can't cast spells they know as Wiz spontaneously in their Sorc slots, and Sorc spells known can't be prepared in their Wiz slots.

Now... Geomancer might help with this, if I remember correctly. Worth checking out at least.

[Indon]

Hmm. The only part of the geomancer ability which implies I'd be able to pull off the trick is where it specifies that you could burn arcane spell slots to spontaneously cast as a Cleric - but it makes no further mention of spontaneous casting or any other interchange of spell lists.

[sonofzeal]

Hmm. The only part of the geomancer ability which implies I'd be able to pull off the trick is where it specifies that you could burn arcane spell slots to spontaneously cast as a Cleric - but it makes no further mention of spontaneous casting or any other interchange of spell lists.

Yeah.... and honestly, I think that's as close as you're going to get. Unless you can somehow qualify for Arcane Disciple as a Healer (Hmmm.... Rainbow Servant Healer?), I don't think this is going to pan through.

[Indon]

Well, if there's any way to cast a Divine spell list as Arcane, then... wait.

Could I use Alternative Source Spell to qualify as being able to cast Arcane spells with the Healer spellcasting progression?

I'd have to change the order of some of the feats, and it'll take longer to finish the build, but...

[sonofzeal]

Well, if there's any way to cast a Divine spell list as Arcane, then... wait.

Could I use Alternative Source Spell to qualify as being able to cast Arcane spells with the Healer spellcasting progression?

I'd have to change the order of some of the feats, and it'll take longer to finish the build, but...

Now you're thinking with portals!

[Indon]

I present, the God-Devoted Healer, who I'm pretty sure works now.

Spoiler

Show

Any Good-Alignment Warmage 1/Fighter 1/Healer 18. Max Wisdom and have 10 Charisma, and otherwise select Clericzilla stats.

Feats:
Level 1: Any feat
Level 3: Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325) - Lets you cast any of your divine spells as arcane spells or vice versa at -1 CL.
Level 6: Arcane Disciple: War (Correlon Larethian) - Lets you cast War domain spells as arcane spells on a spellcasting list of your choice that you can cast arcane spells with.
Level 9: Arcane Disciple: Protection
Level 12: Arcane Disciple: Chaos
Level 15: Arcane Disciple: Good

Equipment: Nonmetal heavy armor (such as dragonhide) and shield, ample wands of curative spells.

The Healer is a full caster with a heavily restricted spell list. So, I expanded the spell list! This healer has access to four domains worth of spells in addition to their standard list, including gems such as Divine Power. Unfortunately, you don't get 9'th level casting until level 19.

Dare I say, I think this character is competitive with Tier 3 classes. Sadly, I had to take a level in a Tier 4 class by level 3 to make it work by level 15 - abiding strictly by the 75% low-tier rule for each level would probably keep the build from filling out until level 18. If I could get an Arcane spell with a dip in any T5+ class (except Lightning Warrior, if ever there were a dip class that would give a build negative power, that would be it), I could make that restriction, but even the Hexblade is T4.

Optionally, pick a different Good deity (Ehlonna grants Animal/Good/Plant/Sun, for instance) and/or don't bother with the Fighter level, for a castier Healer. You could also dip Paladin instead of Fighter for armor proficiency.

The build functions by taking a level in Warmage and Healer to be able to cast both divine and arcane spells, then taking the Alternate Source Spell feat to gain Divine casting capability as a Warmage and Arcane casting capability as a Healer. Then, you use your Arcane casting capability as a Healer to take Arcane Diciple for a Good-aligned deity for the Healer casting progression. Now pursue Healer, and you're a full caster, minus one or two caster levels, with some prime spells to exploit that caster potential with.

Edit: While trying to find an arcane class of T5 or lower, I took a closer look at the thread's requirements, and sadly this build wouldn't qualify even if I found one, as it relies on a feat from Dragon magazine. :(

[Mushroom Ninja]

I've been playing around with the idea of a Monk Charger. Here's what I have so far:

The Tiger-Spear Monk

Race: Shifter

Classes: Monk 11/Fighter 4/Weretouched Master (Tiger) 5

Abilities: Max out STR. Beyond that, it's up to you.

Feats:
1st: Serpent Strike
3rd: Power Attack
6th: Improved Bullrush
9th: Improved Sunder
12th: Leap Attack
Fighter Bonus: Shock Trooper
Fighter Bonus: Combat Brute
15th: Some Shifter Feat
Fighter Bonus: Open
Bonus Shifter Feat: Open
18th: Open
Bonus Shifter Feat: Open

Basically, you use the standard Power Attack Charger tactics, except you flurry with a spear at the end of the charge. By twentieth level you can easily dish out several hundred damage per round.

Strengths:
- You can dish out a heafty chunk of damage each round.

Weaknesses:
- Fairly inflexible build till 15th level
- Doesn't come into its own until level 18
- You're sort of a one-trick pony
- MAD

[dspeyer]

I still don't buy the arcane disciple healer. The feat description says "Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells." Healer doesn't have a list of arcane spells -- only a list of divine spells that could potentially be alternate-sourced.

Also, you can only cast one domain spell per day per level. 9 non-healing spells isn't a lot. This is also a problem with adding domains via PrC dips.

[sonofzeal]

I still don't buy the arcane disciple healer. The feat description says "Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells." Healer doesn't have a list of arcane spells -- only a list of divine spells that could potentially be alternate-sourced.

Also, you can only cast one domain spell per day per level. 9 non-healing spells isn't a lot. This is also a problem with adding domains via PrC dips.

It's... borderline legal, depends on the permissiveness of the DM. Good point about the 1/day/SL thing though.

[Zaq]

I know we have a few Truenamers already, but I think that this is still an appropriate time to pimp the link in my sig. Sanden's currently in a party with a Sorcerer (who is intentionally restraining herself, optimization-wise, but who doesn't make any bad choices) and a Wilder (who is very much not restraining himself) and is still a valuable member of the party. He's also not fully optimized (I voluntarily and intentionally lost a caster level to Human Paragon, for example), but he's not boring or useless. He has a +10 custom item, but doesn't strictly speaking need it.

No, he's not a superb character, but he's an actual example of a Truenamer working. Sure, the results don't match the massive amount of effort I put into making him, but still...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I present, the God-Devoted Healer, who I'm pretty sure works now.

Spoiler

Show

Any Good-Alignment Warmage 1/Fighter 1/Healer 18. Max Wisdom and have 10 Charisma, and otherwise select Clericzilla stats.

Feats:
Level 1: Any feat
Level 3: Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325) - Lets you cast any of your divine spells as arcane spells or vice versa at -1 CL.
Level 6: Arcane Disciple: War (Correlon Larethian) - Lets you cast War domain spells as arcane spells on a spellcasting list of your choice that you can cast arcane spells with.
Level 9: Arcane Disciple: Protection
Level 12: Arcane Disciple: Chaos
Level 15: Arcane Disciple: Good

Equipment: Nonmetal heavy armor (such as dragonhide) and shield, ample wands of curative spells.

The Healer is a full caster with a heavily restricted spell list. So, I expanded the spell list! This healer has access to four domains worth of spells in addition to their standard list, including gems such as Divine Power. Unfortunately, you don't get 9'th level casting until level 19.

Dare I say, I think this character is competitive with Tier 3 classes. Sadly, I had to take a level in a Tier 4 class by level 3 to make it work by level 15 - abiding strictly by the 75% low-tier rule for each level would probably keep the build from filling out until level 18. If I could get an Arcane spell with a dip in any T5+ class (except Lightning Warrior, if ever there were a dip class that would give a build negative power, that would be it), I could make that restriction, but even the Hexblade is T4.

Optionally, pick a different Good deity (Ehlonna grants Animal/Good/Plant/Sun, for instance) and/or don't bother with the Fighter level, for a castier Healer. You could also dip Paladin instead of Fighter for armor proficiency.

The build functions by taking a level in Warmage and Healer to be able to cast both divine and arcane spells, then taking the Alternate Source Spell feat to gain Divine casting capability as a Warmage and Arcane casting capability as a Healer. Then, you use your Arcane casting capability as a Healer to take Arcane Diciple for a Good-aligned deity for the Healer casting progression. Now pursue Healer, and you're a full caster, minus one or two caster levels, with some prime spells to exploit that caster potential with.

Edit: While trying to find an arcane class of T5 or lower, I took a closer look at the thread's requirements, and sadly this build wouldn't qualify even if I found one, as it relies on a feat from Dragon magazine. :(

Problem: Dragon Mag is banned for this challenge, which is the entire basis of the legality of your build. Sorry.

Adept is a T5+ arcane class. It's in the DMG as an NPC class.

Mushroom Ninja: I will add it to the list of submissions.

I've always considered Truenamers would benefit hugely from a one-level dip in Exemplar. Being able to Take 10 on your skill check, and the +4 on your check, are well worth a one-level dip.

[dspeyer]

Venerable Gnome
Healer 16 / Contemplative (Strength) 1 / Cleric 1 / Divine Oracle 1 / Sorcerer 1

Martial Study (White Raven Tactics)
Domain Spontaneity
Skill Focus (basketweaving)

Give all your WBL to your companion.

Sounds crazy?

Basically you play a Couatl (already a reasonably strong CR 10 / ECL 16 monster), with 20 wbl equipment and a little gnome on your back that spends every round healing, buffing or WRTing you. The gnome can share spells like true strike and righteous might. It can also use some powerful divination magic occasionally, and cast miracle four times a day. You co-ordinate with him telepathically.

OK, technically you play the gnome, and the couatl serves you willingly and unswervingly. Close enough.

[Tavar]

How do you get a Couatl, though? If it's through leadership, well, that kinda falls under the fact that leadership is a really good feat, not that the healer is a good class.

[sonofzeal]

Adept is a T5+ arcane class. It's in the DMG as an NPC class.

Common mistake; it's actually a divine class. I thought it was arcane myself for the longest time, but nope. I believe there's actually an outdated PrC, the *EDITED OUT BECAUSE I'M THINKING OF ENTERING IT*, that's only accessible by Adepts (or by Archivists who know one). It's been ages since I actually looked at the class though.

[Kylarra]

How do you get a Couatl, though? If it's through leadership, well, that kinda falls under the fact that leadership is a really good feat, not that the healer is a good class.

Healer companion. It's explicitly using one of the class's abilities.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Common mistake; it's actually a divine class. I thought it was arcane myself for the longest time, but nope. I believe there's actually an outdated PrC, the *EDITED OUT BECAUSE I'M THINKING OF ENTERING IT*, that's only accessible by Adepts (or by Archivists who know one). It's been ages since I actually looked at the class though.

If it is the one that requires you to be able to cast Lightning Bolt as a Divine spell, I know of what you speak. It would be interesting to see if it can actually be done well...

dspeyer: That's not making a class useful, that's making a pet useful. While technically allowed, I don't see it winning many points.

[Ernir]

Currently trying to hammer together some mid-level Samurais. At the moment it looks like I will end up with two separate characters, one Iaijutsu-based OA Samurai and a CW one who will smash things in a bit more traditional way.

[lord_khaine]

How was the rules regarding prestice classes?

[Ernir]

How was the rules regarding prestice classes?

3/4 of your levels must be in tier 5 or lower base classes.

I somehow doubt that things like the Hulking Hurler would be appreciated, though...