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    Default [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    I'm preparing a backup arcane caster in the event that my primary character should die, and I'm thinking about an optimized blastomancer. I've heard about and studied the locate city nuke, and while that wouldn't pass the cheese test with my DM (and takes too many feats anyhow), I'm interested in developing a variation on it that would a) involve less speculative rules interpretations, and b) be less resource-intensive, because this would be a mutually-assured destruction tactic that I would threaten only when all the chips were on the table, not the workhorse centerpiece of my build.

    My current candidate spells would be apocalype from the sky, evil weather, fimbulwinter, or control weather, but I'm open to better spells.

    Minimum level for this character would be 11, but if I didn't acquire the ability to pull off the nuke until level 15-18, that's fine too. Assume standard WBL and any WotC books. Ideally I'd like a blast with a radius large enough to punch a hole in the planet's crust and trigger a volcanic eruption (the game world is fantasy Earth, so everything you know about geology applies). Personally surviving the blast would be a plus, but is not required.

    Can one of the overlord-level optimizers on this board help me blow a hole in the world?

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    Anti-matter Detonation
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    Method: Cast major creation to summon a large quantity of a very dense susbstance. Case it agains to summon the anti-matter equivalent of that substance. Profit.
    Pros: Minimal investment: requires only one spell known, plus possibly some high-end knowledge checks to be aware of the physics involved.
    Cons: DM may rule that anti-matter doesn't exist. DM may rule that I don't know anti-matter exists. Major creation only produces matter, so another method would be required to create the antimatter.
    Prognosis: Unlikely to get DM clearance.


    Project Thor
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    Method: Assemble a gigantic spear of very dense material. Transport it to upper earth orbit and drop them on the target. Per real-world physics, the resulting impact should have the force of a nuclear bomb.
    Pros: Fabricate and teleport should make this a pretty simple job. Target unlikely to have any defense against this tactic.
    Cons: From a great altitude, it may be difficult to aim the projectile properly. D&D physics will cap the damage of any falling object at 20d6. 20d6 impact damage is not instantly deadly to many high-level opponents or hardened structures.
    Prognosis: This is an effective tactic that can deal substantial area damage, perhaps by releasing dozens/hundreds of boulders from high altitude. I'll use it, but it's not deadly enough for what I'm looking for. I need a tactical nuke.


    Flame the World
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    Method: Teleport into orbit. Stack the enlarge breath feat. Breath fire. Alternately, do any one of a variety of nasty things to the planet's core and extinguish all life.
    Pros: Supreme dakka.
    Cons: Too much dakka. I'm looking for a tactical nuke, not the end of the world. Further, the DM is likely to deny any effect that destroys his game world. Also, metabreath enlarge may not stack.
    Prognosis: I need something with a more limited scope.


    For those who aren't familiar with the locate city nuke:
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    The principle of the thing is to start with a spell that has an extremely large area of effect (such as locate city), give it the cold descriptor with the snowcasting feat, make it deal damage with the flash frost spell feat, make it offer a reflex save with the born of three thunders feat, then make it blow everything to kingdom come with the explosive spell feat.

    The build challenge to this combo is that snowcasting is not a metamagic feat, and is therefore applied only when the spell is cast, so even by fairly dodgy RAI, the only class that could pull this is off is a spontaneous caster with four fairly sub-optimal feats and a suboptimal level 1 spell slot.

    The practical obstacle to executing this combo cleanly is that explosive spell requires a spell that allows a reflex save and affects an area, and to deal truly devastating damage, the area must be very very large...hundreds of yards at a minimum, and tens of miles would be better. No spells fit that description, so it's generally necessary to start with a really big spell and use metamagic to shoehorn the spell into meeting the requirements for the explosive spell feat.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2009-10-13 at 09:45 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    You could make an anti-osmium bomb.

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm
    Make anti-osmium, a rare metal. You can make 1 cubic foot per level (so 11 to start), or roughly 297000 cm^3. This is about 6,715 kilograms of anti-osmium. According to Wikipedia, every one kilogram of antimatter annihilated produces the same energy as a 42.96 megaton bomb. This means that you are exploding the equivalent of a 288,476 megaton bomb, or 5,769 Tsar Bombas.

    Enjoy.
    Last edited by infinitypanda; 2009-10-13 at 01:51 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Hmm, I am pretty sure that our universe follows real-world physics closely enough to have anti-matter, but I am not sure the DM will allow me to know what anti-matter is. Is that the combo that involves two major creation spells and one very large bang?
    Last edited by jiriku; 2009-10-13 at 01:46 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Yes, it is. I edited my post to explain in more detail (but I probably messed up one vital detail, so if someone could fact-check that would be nice).
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Hmm, it is good, and for sure it kills many catgirls, but it relies on the existence of a substance (anti-osmium) which doesn't exist in the rulebooks.

    Is there a method of causing a great deal of ruckus that can be constructed entirely from published material?

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Control Winds and/or Control Weather can ruin cities without even trying. Then you get into crazy CL boosters and you start signing treaties.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    One way to most certainly raise the stakes is to announce that you've got friends in low places.

    Gate, 2-way travel version.

    Other side? Roll a d1000 and choose that layer of the Abyss.

    Or choose a level of the 9 Hells that you like. I'm a fan of opening a gate to the base of Dispater's tower. It usually sees decent traffic.

    There's a reason the phrase is "when all hell breaks loose".

    All you need? A decent amount of Knowledge (The Planes), possibly Knowledge (Religion).
    Last edited by PhoenixRivers; 2009-10-13 at 02:07 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Locate City suffers from one inherent problem, namely, it's area of effect is a circle, not a sphere. This eliminates possibility of any massive explosive damage from happening, the worst that would happen is 2 cold damage + targets in the area are moved above or below the area of effect. Still enough to kill some commoners, but that's about it.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Apocalypse from the sky is about as bad as it gets. The spell is pretty much guaranteed to kill everything with less than 6 HD within an area twice the size of Iceland.

    What more do you want?
    Last edited by charl; 2009-10-13 at 06:44 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    I'm no charop master, but it occurs to me that of you Gate between the Earth's core (or possibly the inner core or mantle where it's molten) and some other plane of your choice, the pressure on the Earth side would extrude magma and molten metal through to the other side. Causing a veeeery slow deflation of the planet (or until it stabilised somehow, but I'm guessing it'd still destroy all life on the planet.

    Or there's the metabreath trick, which I just heard about yesterday (get a breath weapon with a recharge time measured in rounds, take the Enlarge Breath feat from Draconomicon. Multiple uses of the same metabreath feat stack, so there's nothing stopping you from teleporting into orbit, stacking the feat a bajillion times and blanketing the entire planet in your breath weapon.

    edit: if there's some sort of attract metal spell, you could do interesting things with the Earth's core. Or perhaps rusting grasp...rust has a much greater volume than iron. Bestow fire immunity on several rust monsters and teleport them to the core. You'll have your vocanic eruptions soon enough.
    Last edited by Violet Octopus; 2009-10-13 at 07:11 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitypanda View Post
    You could make an anti-osmium bomb.

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm
    Make anti-osmium, a rare metal. You can make 1 cubic foot per level (so 11 to start), or roughly 297000 cm^3. This is about 6,715 kilograms of anti-osmium. According to Wikipedia, every one kilogram of antimatter annihilated produces the same energy as a 42.96 megaton bomb. This means that you are exploding the equivalent of a 288,476 megaton bomb, or 5,769 Tsar Bombas.

    Enjoy.
    Is there any particular reason it has to be Osmium? I always hear about anti-osmium bombs, but no anti-hydrogen bombs, or anti-uranium bombs.



    On topic:

    You could load up a Portable Hole with the dense rock of your choice. The volume of a Portable Hole is about 282 cubic feat. One cubic foot of basalt weighs 187 pounds. http://www.seed.slb.com/v2/FAQView.cfm?ID=1115

    That means you can load up 52,734 pounds of rock, carry it to a suitable altitude and drop it. I don't know what would happen if you dropped a 25 ton object from several thousand feat up, but what I do know is that by RAW, if you loaded your Portable Hole up with 52,734 one-pound rocks, and dropped it from 1,400 ft (or higher), each one of those rocks would deal 20d6 damage when it hits. That's 1,054,680d6 damage total. That *should* be enough to destroy whatever the heck you want, including possibly punching a hole through the Earth's crust and starting a volcano.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Pwnzlord View Post
    Is there any particular reason it has to be Osmium? I always hear about anti-osmium bombs, but no anti-hydrogen bombs, or anti-uranium bombs.



    On topic:

    You could load up a Portable Hole with the dense rock of your choice. The volume of a Portable Hole is about 282 cubic feat. One cubic foot of basalt weighs 187 pounds. http://www.seed.slb.com/v2/FAQView.cfm?ID=1115

    That means you can load up 52,734 pounds of rock, carry it to a suitable altitude and drop it. I don't know what would happen if you dropped a 25 ton object from several thousand feat up, but what I do know is that by RAW, if you loaded your Portable Hole up with 52,734 one-pound rocks, and dropped it from 1,400 ft (or higher), each one of those rocks would deal 20d6 damage when it hits. That's 1,054,680d6 damage total. That *should* be enough to destroy whatever the heck you want, including possibly punching a hole through the Earth's crust and starting a volcano.

    With a spelljamming ship and this you could do an orbital impact weapon ("spear of god") with this technique, provided you had a dense enough material available.

    For those unfamiliar with this it's basically dropping a rod of very dense metal from orbit. By the time it reaches planet surface it will be carrying so much kinetic energy that its impact will result in an explosion comparable to a high yield nuclear bomb without the radioactivity.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Pwnzlord View Post
    Is there any particular reason it has to be Osmium? I always hear about anti-osmium bombs, but no anti-hydrogen bombs, or anti-uranium bombs.
    Osmium is the densest natural element - more bang.

    It wouldn't work, anyway, though. The spell specifies that you can only create matter.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Charl View Post
    With a spelljamming ship and this you could do an orbital impact weapon ("spear of god") with this technique, provided you had a dense enough material available.

    For those unfamiliar with this it's basically dropping a rod of very dense metal from orbit. By the time it reaches planet surface it will be carrying so much kinetic energy that its impact will result in an explosion comparable to a high yield nuclear bomb without the radioactivity.
    The problem is, at least the way I read it, is that any falling object only deals a maximum of 20d6 damage. No matter how heavy, or how far it falls, it can only deal a max of 20d6. Even if you argue that that maximum only applies to a bonus to falling it still isn't as efficiant as spreading your weight out. Thus, several thousand small rocks, each individual rock dealing 20d6.


    Here's the relevant passage from the d20srd:

    Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

    Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

    For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

    Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage.

    For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage.

    Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Thane of Fife View Post
    Osmium is the densest natural element - more bang.

    It wouldn't work, anyway, though. The spell specifies that you can only create matter.
    Indeed. This is the most english-raping munckinerism I've ever seen in my life, claiming that a spell that creates matter can create anti-matter!

    What's next? Claim that your cleric can turn living beings? They run on positive energy after all! That's the same as negative energy isn't it?

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Pwnzlord View Post
    The problem is, at least the way I read it, is that any falling object only deals a maximum of 20d6 damage. No matter how heavy, or how far it falls, it can only deal a max of 20d6. Even if you argue that that maximum only applies to a bonus to falling it still isn't as efficiant as spreading your weight out. Thus, several thousand small rocks, each individual rock dealing 20d6.


    Here's the relevant passage from the d20srd:

    Oh, well. Serves me right for trying to apply real world physics to DnD.

    I think the max 20d6 rule is to account for maximum falling velocity, though. And that only applies if you are within the planet's immediate gravity field (never mind that it doesn't take into account atmospheric resistance). If you drop it from space those rules really shouldn't apply.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Indeed. This is the most english-raping munckinerism I've ever seen in my life, claiming that a spell that creates matter can create anti-matter!

    What's next? Claim that your cleric can turn living beings? They run on positive energy after all! That's the same as negative energy isn't it?
    Not to mention that matter is made from the classical elements, not from subatomic particles
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Not to mention that matter is made from the classical elements, not from subatomic particles
    Uhm... no? Matter is made from electrons, protons and neutrons. Those are last time I checked subatomic particles.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Or there's the metabreath trick, which I just heard about yesterday (get a breath weapon with a recharge time measured in rounds, take the Enlarge Breath feat from Draconomicon. Multiple uses of the same metabreath feat stack, so there's nothing stopping you from teleporting into orbit, stacking the feat a bajillion times and blanketing the entire planet in your breath weapon.
    Multiple uses of some specific metabreath feats stack. Enlarge is not one of them.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Charl View Post
    Uhm... no? Matter is made from electrons, protons and neutrons. Those are last time I checked subatomic particles.
    I don't know why, but I can't help imaging you over a microscope somehow checking this out.

    I know it doesn't work that way, my imagination cares not for your "facts."


    Original Anti-Osmium post.(as far as I know)
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    I don't know why, but I can't help imaging you over a microscope somehow checking this out.

    Haha. Now that would be cool. (In real life I'm not a very science minded person. I study literature and rhetoric!)

    No, but really. If a spell calls for matter then anti-matter is out of the question.
    At least that's how I would rule it if I was the DM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Uh, I meant matter is composed of the classical elements in D&D. Which can be houseruled or homebrewed otherwise in a fantasy Earth setting, but unless such houserules exist, subatomic particles and hence antimatter do not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Multiple uses of some specific metabreath feats stack. Enlarge is not one of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconomicon pg66
    For example, a Small dragon with a line-shaped breath weapon could use Enlarge Breath twice on the same breath. Since the base length of the line is 40 feet, the doubly enlarged line would become 80 feet long (20 extra feet per application of the feat), and the dragon would have to wait 1d4+2 rounds before breathing again.
    It does go on to say that if a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this is noted under "Special", and Enlarge Breath doesn't mention it. So it's unclear.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Getting back to the question:

    If you want to cast any spell at all as an immediate action 1/day, read on. The Anima Mage allows you to cast any spell at all with any casting time as an immediate action once per day, at ECL 14. At that point, I believe you get Control Weather.

    Do the math.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Uh, I meant matter is composed of the classical elements in D&D. Which can be houseruled or homebrewed otherwise in a fantasy Earth setting, but unless such houserules exist, subatomic particles and hence antimatter do not exist.
    Ah, true indeed! Everything is made out of fire, water, earth, wind and HEARTH!

    When their powers combine they form CAPTAIN PLANET, PROTECTOR OF CATGIRLS!
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-10-13 at 08:35 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    It does go on to say that if a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this is noted under "Special", and Enlarge Breath doesn't mention it. So it's unclear.
    It's a classic case of WotC not reading their own rules when writing their examples. It's not unclear at all, when an example and rule conflict, the rule wins. The rule is that self-stacking metabreath feats have a "Special" section that mentions this fact and Enlarge Breath does not have such a section. Therefore Enlarge Breath does not stack with itself.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Uh, I meant matter is composed of the classical elements in D&D. Which can be houseruled or homebrewed otherwise in a fantasy Earth setting, but unless such houserules exist, subatomic particles and hence antimatter do not exist.
    DMG 136 - This section on world-building assumes that your campaign is set in a fairly realistic world. That is to say that while wizards cast spells, deities channel power to clerics, and dragons raze villages, the world is round, the laws of physics are applicable, and most people act like real people. The reason for this assumption is that unless they are told otherwise, this situation is what your players expect.
    This was the argument given to me when I actually cited the written rules on how gravity works in the D&D world. You've got less to stand on than I did.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    OK, I concede.
    edit: about metabreath feats, that is.

    In any case, it's an uncreative way of destroying a planet.

    Back on topic, my rust monster plan: the earth's core (including outer core) has a radius of about 3400 km, or a volume of 1.646x10^20 cubic metres. A rust monster can corrode a 10ft cube of metal/round, or 28.32 cubic metres.

    ...about 1x10^12 years for a single rust monster to devour the entire core, and to trigger eruptions, you'd probably need a sizeable amount of the core to be corroded, so at best we can knock off a couple of orders of magnitude.

    Unless the OP can get a billion rust monsters, this isn't going to work. Unless there's some way to improve the rust monster?
    Last edited by Violet Octopus; 2009-10-13 at 09:14 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Summon Dalmosh
    Dalmosh is a Gargantuan Outsider in Monster Manual V that tries to eat anything in his path. He grows more mouths when he is damaged and has a demiplane in his stomach.

    Summoning him only requires 10,000 gp of food and drink and an hour long ritual.
    For extra fun cast Fly on him as soon as he appears. Then teleport away (he tries to eat anything, including you)

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Pwnzlord View Post
    That's 1,054,680d6 damage total.
    many moons ago, in a heavily modified, very high-powered Champions game i was in.......

    one of the PCs was sitting "at rest" relative to the Sun when the Earth slammed into him.

    he took similar damage to what you describe. one dude had to write a quick computer program to roll all the dice. being it was sometime in the 1980's, said computer took quite some time to calculate the damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Pwnzlord View Post
    That *should* be enough to destroy whatever the heck you want, including possibly punching a hole through the Earth's crust and starting a volcano.
    it wasn't. Behemoth (for such was his moniker) survived.

    i'll grant you that he did punch a rather large hole in the deck which did indeed, eventually, fill up with lava.

    we had to get his fat arse out of the hole before the magma could flow.

    (did i mention this was a seriously high-powered game?)

    - - - -
    back on topic, dropping a whole ****load of 1lb objects from high altitude should flatten the city of your choice.

    of course, aiming the damn thing could be a little dicey. do you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Orbital Bombardment?

    i didn't think so. that's one hell of a range penalty coupled with the non-proficiency penalty you'll have to overcome unless you want to risk hitting something you don't actually want to hit.

    perhaps consider the possibilities offered by a simple TrueStrike spell......
    Last edited by sambo.; 2009-10-13 at 09:49 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [CharOp masters needed] variation on the Locate City nuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Pwnzlord View Post
    The problem is, at least the way I read it, is that any falling object only deals a maximum of 20d6 damage. No matter how heavy, or how far it falls, it can only deal a max of 20d6. Even if you argue that that maximum only applies to a bonus to falling it still isn't as efficiant as spreading your weight out. Thus, several thousand small rocks, each individual rock dealing 20d6.


    Here's the relevant passage from the d20srd:
    I'm pretty sure that the max damage only applies to the distance falling rather than altogether; don't you think it's a bit silly that the Moon could fall onto Earth and we would only take 20d6 damage?
    Last edited by lvl 1 sharnian; 2009-10-13 at 09:46 AM.
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