SO I have this friend...

[Shinizak]

Good way to start any conversation, yeah?

Anyway, He can't die. I can't kill his character at all, and not because he's good at avoiding my obstacles. It's because he's pretty much an abusive player, and if he does die or gets some negative lingering effect he'll yell at us. When confronted about it he denies it (while yelling) and says his mood is because he needs something to eat.

He creates all sorts of "great characters" (cue optimizing fail), runs full throttle into battle, then gets butt hurt when I find his one ((many) weakness(es). He rolls Knowledge arcane checks and demands to know info about a villain, monster, or major plot point that I flat don't want to give out and gets upset when I don't.

He takes lead of the group tells them what to do and holds his victories above the other players heads for weeks, while pointing out others flawed actions for weeks (any time he does something stupid it's because "he's only human"). And will barge in on other people's private solo missions and talk crap about the players action RIGHT THERE!!!

I would kick him out but I owe him money, and he knows it. What do I do?

[DementedFellow]

Pay him the money and kick him out?

[Hat-Trick]

Pay his money and kick him out.

EDIT: Damn my low wisdom! I hate Ninjas!

[Tyndmyr]

Wow...sounds like a real winner.

If possible, I would suggest paying him back asap, if that's interfering with your relationships.

Perhaps a bit of talking regarding teamwork might be in order as well? If he's hungry, bring snacks, or eat before the game, but it's hardly an excuse to screw with your friends.

[Shinizak]

I will, but it'll take time. What can I do in the mean time?

[Gorgondantess]

Pay back the money, and kick him. Or, just kick him. What does owing him money have to do with it? It's not like he can say "you owe me another thousand dollars because you kicked me from your group" or something like that.

Okay, so maybe if you kick him he'll want to collect faster and harass you about it... but, hey, if you owe money you owe money. Besides, if he's going to harass you, make sure he does it on his own time, not your and your friend's time.

[Coidzor]

That doesn't sound like a friend at all.

[Tyndmyr]

I take it the word friend is being used loosely here. =)

It so often is when a story begins that way.

[Paulus]

Good way to start any conversation, yeah?

Anyway, He can't die. I can't kill his character at all, and not because he's good at avoiding my obstacles. It's because he's pretty much an abusive player, and if he does die or gets some negative lingering effect he'll yell at us. When confronted about it he denies it (while yelling) and says his mood is because he needs something to eat.

He creates all sorts of "great characters" (cue optimizing fail), runs full throttle into battle, then gets butt hurt when I find his one ((many) weakness(es). He rolls Knowledge arcane checks and demands to know info about a villain, monster, or major plot point that I flat don't want to give out and gets upset when I don't.

He takes lead of the group tells them what to do and holds his victories above the other players heads for weeks, while pointing out others flawed actions for weeks (any time he does something stupid it's because "he's only human"). And will barge in on other people's private solo missions and talk crap about the players action RIGHT THERE!!!

I would kick him out but I owe him money, and he knows it. What do I do?

If you have already talked to him about his behavior and he refuses to listen.
Well you have two options, option one is if you really really want to keep him around. It involves sitting him down alone, and telling him you can't tolerate his type of behavior anymore in game or out of game. He has anger issues and is very abuse to everyone. If he can not change his ways you will have to insist that he doesn't contact you again. You'd like to help, you really would, but if he doesn't listen, you can't do anything more and he needs to leave. Thank you.

or two, "Please, leave. I will pay you back in time. Through mail, but you can not play anymore. We do not want you here. Please leave."
Walk to the door. Hold it open, listen to nothing he says. Simply wait for him to leave, if he does not. Call police.

Life is far to short to let ANYONE ruin your fun. You tried. Move on.

[Shinizak]

I was afraid you were going to say that. He used to be a cool guy when he first started.

<=[

[Tyndmyr]

People change. Sometimes, people don't even realize they've changed. Talking to him frankly about it might fix the issue...but if not, you need a backup plan.

[Paulus]

I was afraid you were going to say that. He used to be a cool guy when he first started.

<=[

Again two options.

1) realize that SOME people put their best foot forward. Always. Only when they have hooked you on the deception that they are like one way, do their true colors appear. Sometimes it can take years, sometimes it can take seconds. It all depends on the layers of defenses the person puts up. There is honestly nothing you can do about it, especially if are not a close enough friend for him to bring the cause to you outside of D&D. You can only hope he gets better and protect yourself and the group from his lashings out at the world. You shouldn't have to suffer because he doesn't know how to deal with his own life. Move. on.

2) if you indeed have been his friend, if you indeed have known him for so long, or if indeed he has been a childhood friend... then I would certainly spot this as a non D&D related problem. In which case, he doesn't need to be exposed to your group until whatever problems he has can be settled. By you and he, or someone else. Give him a probation period, work with him on solving whatever is causing the troubles in his life that cause him to unleash his emotions upon you and your game and your group. D&D can be wonderful therapy... but it is a group effort, and selfish of him to expect everyone else to allow for his suffering.

However much you love this person depends on your next actions. But however much you love him, it is not enough to harm your group for it. Do not include them. Either way. This person needs to step away from the table, and step toward his life.

Unless you give me more specifics I can not be deeper then that. And I doubt such things would need be discusses on this forum anyway. Thus, I hope whatever may come of this is positive, and you and your group can play in peace. Together, or otherwise.

[KillianHawkeye]

An alternative idea (depending on exactly how much money you owe this guy):

Talk to your other friends about it. If they all feel the same way as you do, and understand that you can't afford to pay what you owe, see if they will all chip in to pay your debt off so you all can be rid of this guy.

The end result: You now owe money to all of your actual friends, who you can still stand to be around, and you can solve your problem and never have to see this other guy again. Ever.

[Ranos]

I'm not gonna comment on the whole issue since we only have one side of the story, but there are a few things I think he had right.
-Knowledge checks should not be denied for "plot reasons". If he succeeds in his knowledge check, he damn well better know stuff about the monster of the week.
-Solo missions are usually a bad idea. What else do you expect him to do, just sit here doing nothing for an hour ?

You should probably ask him why he keeps whining about stuff. Maybe he has a legitimate concern about you singling him out (I mean, you did say you've been specifically trying to "find his weaknesses"). The money issue should be solved asap though.

More importantly, maybe you should talk to the other players about it. If you've got consensus, doesn't matter who's right, he gets kicked out.

[Shinizak]

I'm not gonna comment on the whole issue since we only have one side of the story, but there are a few things I think he had right.
-Knowledge checks should not be denied for "plot reasons". If he succeeds in his knowledge check, he damn well better know stuff about the monster of the week.
-Solo missions are usually a bad idea. What else do you expect him to do, just sit here doing nothing for an hour ?

You should probably ask him why he keeps whining about stuff. Maybe he has a legitimate concern about you singling him out (I mean, you did say you've been specifically trying to "find his weaknesses"). The money issue should be solved asap though.

More importantly, maybe you should talk to the other players about it. If you've got consensus, doesn't matter who's right, he gets kicked out.

True, I do actively look for a way to hurt his super builds, maybe I should stop that, but the money thing will be solved ASAP.

[Tyndmyr]

-Knowledge checks should not be denied for "plot reasons". If he succeeds in his knowledge check, he damn well better know stuff about the monster of the week.

This is actually a good point, yeah. Any time standard abilities get denied due to plot, players tend to get upset. And, in my experience, upset or bored players generally look for the easiest way available to shake things up. The easiest thing available is generally screwing with the DM.

[Thurbane]

Anyone who is only kept in a game becuase you owe them something is not someone I would like to game with. I would take him aside and try to have a civilized discussions about the problems he causes in the game. How do the other players feel about him?

Long story short, if the issue can't be resolved and he is making the game un-fun for you and the other players, politely ask him to leave - oweing someone money is not a reason to let them walk all over you. It's a totally seperate issue as to whther he is invited to your game or not.

[Shinizak]

This is actually a good point, yeah. Any time standard abilities get denied due to plot, players tend to get upset. And, in my experience, upset or bored players generally look for the easiest way available to shake things up. The easiest thing available is generally screwing with the DM.

He makes them to know the weaknesses of monsters, to know what spell I'm using, and the worst one was he was trying to learn how to use a scroll of true Resurrection as a fighter (he refused) to let the cleric use it since it was "his" scroll (even though the bard found it).

[xPANCAKEx]

run a seperate game for the fun players, then until you can pay him back, run an easy game for that... as long as the rest understand its a smokescreen they'll be fine with it

edit: and how much do you owe him?

[Ranos]

He makes them to know the weaknesses of monsters, to know what spell I'm using, and the worst one was he was trying to learn how to use a scroll of true Resurrection as a fighter (he refused) to let the cleric use it since it was "his" scroll (even though the bard found it).

Well then that's just bad knowledge of the rules. Knowing the weaknesses of monsters is fair, that's how the skill should be used. Knowing what spell you're using is a spellcraft check. Using a scroll is a Use magic device check. Just take a moment to both read the rules and the problem might go away.

[root9125]

He makes them to know the weaknesses of monsters, to know what spell I'm using, and the worst one was he was trying to learn how to use a scroll of true Resurrection as a fighter (he refused) to let the cleric use it since it was "his" scroll (even though the bard found it).

Those things are, in order: usually accepted, extremely often accepted, and not accepted. Not so bad, really.

[Tyndmyr]

He makes them to know the weaknesses of monsters, to know what spell I'm using, and the worst one was he was trying to learn how to use a scroll of true Resurrection as a fighter (he refused) to let the cleric use it since it was "his" scroll (even though the bard found it).

The first one is a completely appropriate use of a knowledge skill. Now, it depends on the knowledge skill and the monster as to if he'll get anything from it, but it's something that's certainly possible, depending on the monster.

Knowing what spell you're using...spellcraft. Scroll, well, sure, a knowledge arcana check might let him know about the scroll, but he still needs UMD to actually use it.

He might just need a refresher on which skill does what...and yeah, players often lobby for questionable uses of skills.



Definitely don't keep someone in a game just cause you owe them money, though. Trust me, in the long run, it'll be worse off for everyone, including you.

[Shinizak]

Well then that's just bad knowledge of the rules. Knowing the weaknesses of monsters is fair, that's how the skill should be used. Knowing what spell you're using is a spellcraft check. Using a scroll is a Use magic device check. Just take a moment to both read the rules and the problem might go away.

But he uses them for EVERYTHING. and I DO mean everything. He once tried to use it to know who the king's killer was.

[Tyndmyr]

Worth a shot. I mean, if magic was involved, it's possible it could provide info.

Put it this way, if I were a character without spellcraft...and as a fighter, I would be, since it's cross class, and they get jack for skill points, I'd attempt to use it to identify spells too.

I'm not saying you *should* toss him the identity of the killer for it, just know that it's not that unusual for players to try to shoehorn their skills into the situation however possible. Especially those poor bastards with nearly no skills to begin with.

[KillianHawkeye]

But he uses them for EVERYTHING. and I DO mean everything. He once tried to use it to know who the king's killer was.

"You have no idea." Problem solved.

[root9125]

But he uses them for EVERYTHING. and I DO mean everything. He once tried to use it to know who the king's killer was.

Dude, you're getting way too easily annoyed. Really. Players have no good reason NOT to try to do these things. Now, if he's getting angsty when he fails, that's lame, but otherwise, no big deal.

[Superglucose]

Do what my friend does.

"Knowledge Arcana: "Who killed the king?" ... 35!"

"Your intense studies in the field of magic have lead you to realize that the king could have indeed been killed by someone who was able to wield arcane magic."

(of course, this by no means means anything since a Wizard can cut your throat just as well as anyone else (NO! Coup de grace in my games are DEATH, NO SAVE! Bad D&D rules :P))

[Fluffles]

Kick him out and keep the money as a sanity tax.

[Vangor]

Anyway, He can't die. I can't kill his character at all, and not because he's good at avoiding my obstacles. It's because he's pretty much an abusive player, and if he does die or gets some negative lingering effect he'll yell at us.

He is being a child about an inevitability in game. Tell him to shut up if he begins yelling, and tell him to learn from his mistakes.

He creates all sorts of "great characters" (cue optimizing fail), runs full throttle into battle, then gets butt hurt when I find his one ((many) weakness(es).

If you are purposefully seeking his weaknesses encounter to encounter, stop. Now, you say many which leads me to believe he falls prey to obvious tactics, but, if not, unless the opponent has been observant, is entirely too knowledgeable, or has had the time necessary to test in combat trying to metagame against him is an aggravating move unless agreed upon by both people involved.

He rolls Knowledge arcane checks and demands to know info about a villain, monster, or major plot point that I flat don't want to give out and gets upset when I don't.

Meh, Knowledge:Arcane gives decent information but only truly about objects or monsters which one might possess knowledge of. While you should refrain from not giving information by fiat, even with the host of Knowledge skills there are still gaps in what is known and there always exists information beyond what can merely be known with study.

[Shinizak]

Dude, you're getting way too easily annoyed. Really. Players have no good reason NOT to try to do these things. Now, if he's getting angsty when he fails, that's lame, but otherwise, no big deal.

It's not that he gets angsty, it's that he yells and yells.