Ultimate Magus and Gestalts

[Edwin]

Yo everyone.

I have a question, that I simply cannot find an answer for myself, and as such, I turn to you.

You're in a gestalt game. You go sorcerer on one side, wizard/ultimate magus on the either.

My question here is, wouldn't having sorcerer on both sides, in a manner that's supposed to stack, push the effective sorcerer casting level beyond your character level? Meaning that you would get higher levels spells quicker?

[arguskos]

The gestalt rules prohibit dual casting PrC's for just that reason, IIRC.

[Myrmex]

The gestalt rules prohibit dual casting PrC's for just that reason, IIRC.

They actually just strongly suggest you don't do it:

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

[Edwin]

Yeah, I know that, but the DM approved of Ultimate Magus, so that suggestion is out.

[arguskos]

"should be prohibited" is very strong language in this case. Gestalt is an alternate, OPTIONAL, ruleset to begin with, so that's about as good as you can get. It's commonly held to be a blanket prohibition in all discussions about gestalt, near as I can see.

[PhoenixRivers]

Assuming it's allowed. Gestalt takes the best progression, but if classes on both sides advance the same class feature, only the most advantageous rate of progression applies.

For example, if I take Rogue 20 // Sneak attack Fighter 6 / Assassin 10 / XX 4?


Sneak attack progresses at the Rogue rate only, it doesn't stack.

Similarly, if I take the following:

Wizard 20 // Warblade 5 / Elemental Savant 8 / Iot7V 7

I end up at CL 20, even though ElS and Iot7V both progress Caster level class features. You only get the more advantageous progression.

[Edwin]

I know that.

But let's just assume that his has nothing to do with an actual game - would you agree that it would work like that?

[PhoenixRivers]

You want to know how progression of the same class feature on both sides would stack.

The answer is no.

If you were a Sorceror 20 / Wizard 10 / Ultimate Magus 10...

You just lost 2 metamagic feats, for nothing. Congratulations.

If this had "nothing to do with an actual game", then the closest answer to how a game effect would work in a situation that has nothing to do with an actual game?

My answer to that is either "potato" or "marshmallow", because I like both.

[arguskos]

I know that.

But let's just assume that his has nothing to do with an actual game - would you agree that it would work like that?

If we're ignoring the actual way the rule even functions, then sure, you came to a solid conclusion. The casting would stack, making your sorcerer casting very strong.

Understand that there is no way to confirm this by rules though, since no rule I am aware of permits this sort of event to occur. Just sayin'.

[Myrmex]

You want to know how progression of the same class feature on both sides would stack.

The answer is no.

If you were a Sorceror 20 / Wizard 10 / Ultimate Magus 10...

You just lost 2 metamagic feats, for nothing. Congratulations.

If this had "nothing to do with an actual game", then the closest answer to how a game effect would work in a situation that has nothing to do with an actual game?

My answer to that is either "potato" or "marshmallow", because I like both.

Except you get free metamagic....

At the levels where you advance both wizard & sorc, you instead take something like rogue, factotum, or warblade, depending on what you want to do, so you retain double threat status and can dabble in other things.

[Edwin]

You want to know how progression of the same class feature on both sides would stack.

The answer is no.

If you were a Sorceror 20 / Wizard 10 / Ultimate Magus 10...

You just lost 2 metamagic feats, for nothing. Congratulations.

If this had "nothing to do with an actual game", then the closest answer to how a game effect would work in a situation that has nothing to do with an actual game?

My answer to that is either "potato" or "marshmallow", because I like both.

Woah, dude, watch the tone there, you're hurting my feelings.

So basically, you're saying I can't use sorcerer on one side, and wizard on the other, to qualify for class that has wizard and sorcerer casting as a prerequisite?

Good to know..

Edit:

If we're ignoring the actual way the rule even functions, then sure, you came to a solid conclusion. The casting would stack, making your sorcerer casting very strong.

Understand that there is no way to confirm this by rules though, since no rule I am aware of permits this sort of event to occur. Just sayin'.

Apart from the suggestion on Wizard's side, I' not aware of any particular rule that prohibits this kind of thinking. So since you are, could you be ever so kind and point me to it?

[Myrmex]

Woah, dude, watch the tone there, you're hurting my feelings.

So basically, you're saying I can't use sorcerer on one side, and wizard on the other, to qualify for class that has wizard and sorcerer casting as a prerequisite?

Good to know..

You can. Wizard/sorcerer works.

But when you get +1wizard casting AND +1 sorcerer cast from UM, it doesn't stack with the similar cast on the other side. So if you are getting +1wizard & +1 sorc from UM, then the +1 wizard you picked up on the other side is doing nothing for you but getting you closer to another bonus feat.

[PhoenixRivers]

Except you get free metamagic....

At the levels where you advance both wizard & sorc, you instead take something like rogue, factotum, or warblade, depending on what you want to do, so you retain double threat status and can dabble in other things.

That is an option.

Now:

Bard 6 / Ur Priest 4 / Sublime Chord 4 / Mystic Theurge 6 (ur priest and Sublime chord) //
Wizard 3 / Ardent 3 / Cerebremancer 4 / Ardent +4 / Wizard +1 / Ardent +5

With Practiced manifester, you get 9th level arcane (SubChord), 9th level divine (urpriest), 9th level psionic (ardent), and 4th level arcane prepared (wizard )

[PhoenixRivers]

Woah, dude, watch the tone there, you're hurting my feelings.

Sorry, I'm attempting to point out my confusion with your statement.

So basically, you're saying I can't use sorcerer on one side, and wizard on the other, to qualify for class that has wizard and sorcerer casting as a prerequisite?

You can QUALIFY from both sides. You just can't progress 1 class from both sides at the same time.

A build that did:

Wizard 20 // Sorceror 10 / Ultimate Magus 10

Would be wasting wizard on the last 10 levels.

Now?

Wizard 10 / Ultimate Magus 10 // Sorceror 10 / Swordsage 10

That's fine.

You'll end up casting as a 20 wizard, a 20 sorceror. You'll have maneuvers as a Swordsage 10, but your first 10 levels count for +5 initiator level, so you can start with level 3 maneuvers, and, by level 20, have level 8 maneuvers. Your last 10 levels will give you a couple more BAB, better saves, and more skill points, to boot.

You trim the waste out, let Ultimate magus handle both progressions, and use that space you freed for something else.

[Kurald Galain]

So basically, you're saying I can't use sorcerer on one side, and wizard on the other, to qualify for class that has wizard and sorcerer casting as a prerequisite?

Yes, you can do that. It's just at the later levels that you can't. Of course, nothing prevents you from then using psion or warlock on the left side, while your right side uses UM to boost both sorcerer and wizard.

The ultimate result being this...

[sofawall]

Ultimate Magus doesn't have 10/10 casting, does it?

[Edwin]

Sorry, I'm attempting to point out my confusion with your statement.
You can QUALIFY from both sides. You just can't progress 1 class from both sides at the same time.

A build that did:

Wizard 20 // Sorceror 10 / Ultimate Magus 10

Would be wasting wizard on the last 10 levels.

Now?

Wizard 10 / Ultimate Magus 10 // Sorceror 10 / Swordsage 10

That's fine.

You'll end up casting as a 20 wizard, a 20 sorceror. You'll have maneuvers as a Swordsage 10, but your first 10 levels count for +5 initiator level, so you can start with level 3 maneuvers, and, by level 20, have level 8 maneuvers. Your last 10 levels will give you a couple more BAB, better saves, and more skill points, to boot.

You trim the waste out, let Ultimate magus handle both progressions, and use that space you freed for something else.

See, now, that's helpful. Thanks.

[PhoenixRivers]

I prefer swordsage personally. gives a bit of versatility to the concept. If you're gonna do a psion class, might as well go ardent + practiced manifester, to end at level 7 powers, instead of level 5.

[Edwin]

Ultimate Magus doesn't have 10/10 casting, does it?

7/10 I think.

[arguskos]

It has 10/10 for the class with the lower caster level, and 7/10 for the class with the higher caster level.

[Kurald Galain]

Ultimate Magus doesn't have 10/10 casting, does it?

It has 17/10, actually.

You can make the 10 apply to your "higher" side with some tweaking.

[Myrmex]

Sorry, I'm attempting to point out my confusion with your statement.
You can QUALIFY from both sides. You just can't progress 1 class from both sides at the same time.

A build that did:

Wizard 20 // Sorceror 10 / Ultimate Magus 10

Would be wasting wizard on the last 10 levels.

Now?

Wizard 10 / Ultimate Magus 10 // Sorceror 10 / Swordsage 10

That's fine.

You'll end up casting as a 20 wizard, a 20 sorceror. You'll have maneuvers as a Swordsage 10, but your first 10 levels count for +5 initiator level, so you can start with level 3 maneuvers, and, by level 20, have level 8 maneuvers. Your last 10 levels will give you a couple more BAB, better saves, and more skill points, to boot.

You trim the waste out, let Ultimate magus handle both progressions, and use that space you freed for something else.

You'd have maneuvers as a swordsage 15, actually.

/nitpick

[PhoenixRivers]

Now, the real fun with dual progression is dual progression from fast advancement.

Let's say we have a build with Ur Priest 1 and Sublime chord 1.

Both have 9th level casting in 10 total levels.

Now we take 9 levels of Mystic Theurge and advance both.

Suddenly, it's:

Bard 6 / Ur Priest 2 / Swordsage 2 / Sublime Chord 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Mystic Theurge 8
And
Ardent 9 / Subverted Psion 1 / Ardent +10

Tainted Scholar Advances Sublime Chord, and suddenly, the only 2 stats that matter are wis and con.

9th Arcane (CL 20) with insane DC's possible. Taint based (limited by Wis and Con... Possible to have an effective casting stat in the hundreds)
9th level divine (CL 18-22, depending on reading of Ur priest CL. Guaranteed CL 20 with Practiced Spellcaster), Wis based
9th level psionics (ML 20), Wis based
3rd level maneuvers (IL 11)

Subverted Psion limits the negative impact of taint through tainted caster, as well as controls your total taint level.

[PhoenixRivers]

You'd have maneuvers as a swordsage 15, actually.

/nitpick

Total number of maneuvers and stances would be as a swordsage 10. Level for those maneuvers would be chosen as a Swordsage 6-15.

[Myrmex]

Now, the real fun with dual progression is dual progression from fast advancement.

Let's say we have a build with Ur Priest 1 and Sublime chord 1.

Both have 9th level casting in 10 total levels.

Now we take 9 levels of Mystic Theurge and advance both.

Suddenly, it's:

Bard 6 / Ur Priest 2 / Swordsage 2 / Sublime Chord 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Mystic Theurge 8
And
Ardent 9 / Subverted Psion 1 / Ardent +10

Tainted Scholar Advances Sublime Chord, and suddenly, the only 2 stats that matter are wis and con.

9th Arcane (CL 20) with insane DC's possible. Taint based (limited by Wis and Con... Possible to have an effective casting stat in the hundreds)
9th level divine (CL 18-22, depending on reading of Ur priest CL. Guaranteed CL 20 with Practiced Spellcaster), Wis based
9th level psionics (ML 20), Wis based
3rd level maneuvers (IL 11)

Subverted Psion limits the negative impact of taint through tainted caster, as well as controls your total taint level.

Your build lacks Beholder Mage.
You should add some.

[PhoenixRivers]

Your build lacks Beholder Mage.
You should add some.

I'm AFB, sue me.

Take the Time Mantle for Anticipatory Strike and Temporal Acceleration.
Use Ur-priest for buffs.
Focus on Save-or-X spells with Sub Chord, as your Charm Person will have a DC in the neighborhood of 76, conservatively.

Use Expanded Knowledge to get Schism, and use Still Silent Eschewed spells as mental actions.