CW Ronin/CW samuri

[RagnaroksChosen]

So I have a question. I didn't want to derail the other threads. I was curious about the ronin prc feature of turning in Samuri levels.

If I have an 11th level samuri and i take 1 level of ronin as my 12th ECL

Do i gain every thing on that table?
The last ability says as above plus. So I wasn't sure?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Do i gain every thing on that table?

Yes you do, everything's cumulative.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Awsome thank you..

Ok another question then

I assume then that if you trade in the levels your more on par with other fighter types as youhave a source of extra dmg plus the abilitys of a samuri?

[Glimbur]

Awsome thank you..

Ok another question then

I assume then that if you trade in the levels your more on par with other fighter types as youhave a source of extra dmg plus the abilitys of a samuri?

When you say "fighter types", do you mean characters with most of their levels in fighter, or Warblades and semi-optimized Barbarians and such?

[RagnaroksChosen]

ehh I'm trying to figure where it stands so both?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I assume then that if you trade in the levels your more on par with other fighter types as youhave a source of extra dmg plus the abilitys of a samuri?

It would definitely be better than a regular samurai (but then, that's not a major accomplishment). You get sneak attack and a weaker version of Shock Trooper, so it's definitely worth it for a samurai to pick those up.

Compared to a decently optimized martial type? Well...no. Ronin will get you back up from samurai power level to mid-range fighter or barbarian level if you know what you're doing, but it really can't do much more than that.

[Flickerdart]

There was a pretty powerful build (for a Samurai) hanging around somewhere that relied on the level trade-in for some neat shenanigans, but I forget what happened to it. Look in the previous CW Samurai thread we had.

[arguskos]

Eh, I found that Ronin alone is a decent PrC, if only for Banzai Charge. I tend to give any character that thematically would take a few levels in it enough to get banzai charge, especially if they're feat starved and can't get to Shock Trooper for whatever reason (like, say, they're taking Combat Brute instead).

It's nothing GOOD, but it's alright in some situations. Well, I like it anyways.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, here's how it goes:

When you break your Samurai Code, you 'fall', much like Paladins. You loose all class abilities.

Ronin lets you get some of them back, kinda like Blackguards. It's not giving them to you all over again, it's allowing you to use the class abilities that stopped working when you broke the Code.

As far as trading in levels, if you no longer have the Samurai levels to get something, then you don't have it anymore.

For example;

Samurai 10 class ability is Mass Staredown, which you loose if you break your Code.

Say I was a 12th level Samurai who did something sufficently Chaotic enough to break my code and 'fall'. I take a level of Ronin. I can trade up to 10 levels of Samurai for Ronin. So I go ahead and go 'whole hog' and trade in 10. I'm a Samurai3/Ronin10. I don't have Mass Staredown, because I don't have Samurai 10. However, if I only dipped 1 level of Ronin, and didn't trade any of my levels in, then I would be a CW Samurai 12/Ronin1, with all the class abilities from Samurai turned back on, and +1d6 Sneak Attack.

Hope that clears things up.

[RagnaroksChosen]

ShneekeyTheLost
So you saying that if i did turn in all my samuri levels i would have none of the class features(kia smite, mass stare down) as a x level samari?


See it confuses me because the table says as above and then int hetext it says it looses it>?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

ShneekeyTheLost
So you saying that if i did turn in all my samuri levels i would have none of the class features(kia smite, mass stare down) as a x level samari?


See it confuses me because the table says as above and then int hetext it says it looses it>?

The table is based on the number of samurai levels that you currently have. You can trade in samurai levels for ronin levels, but then you don't have the samurai levels anymore. The whole "trade in levels" thing lets you swap levels of samurai for levels of ronin, and is a separate benefit from getting old class features back: if you have more than 11 levels of samurai, you may trade them in for ronin levels, but then you lose out on the other benefits.

[RagnaroksChosen]

The table is based on the number of samurai levels that you currently have. You can trade in samurai levels for ronin levels, but then you don't have the samurai levels anymore. The whole "trade in levels" thing lets you swap levels of samurai for levels of ronin, and is a separate benefit from getting old class features back: if you have more than 11 levels of samurai, you may trade them in for ronin levels, but then you lose out on the other benefits.

So the only way to get all the bennys of ronin and samuri would be to be a 10 samuri 10 ronin? having traded in samuri levels at 20?

[Zeta Kai]

So the only way to get all the bennys of ronin and samuri would be to be a 10 samuri 10 ronin? having traded in samuri levels at 20?

Basically, yeah. Which a painfully sub-optimal build. In many campaigns, you will be struggling to survive long enough to pull it off.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Basically, yeah. Which a painfully sub-optimal build. In many campaigns, you will be struggling to survive long enough to pull it off.

Ya thats all kinds of suck...

Well i guess im glad you guys clarifiied I assumed that a
1 samuri/10 ronin would still have a bunch of the samuri stuff..


On a side note.
If that where allowed.
If a 1 samuri/10 ronin where to be able to keep kia smite and the stare down and what not would that make it better or would it still be sub par?

[The Rose Dragon]

Samurai. With two "a"s. Not samuri.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Samurai. With two "a"s. Not samuri.

please read my sig

[The Rose Dragon]

I did. Still, the correct version has been repeated in the thread many times. You just have to read one of them. Hell, Samurai isn't even an English word.

A Samurai 1 / Ronin 10 does keep any of his kiai smite abilities (which is to say, none), but none of the staredown abilities (which is also none). Even if he would keep any of it, since Samurai 1 doesn't have any to begin with, it doesn't work out well.

[Telonius]

It would make it slightly better, but probably still not enough to take it.

I would love to be in a campaign where the ability to smite Korean automobiles would come into play.

[RagnaroksChosen]

It would make it slightly better, but probably still not enough to take it.

I would love to be in a campaign where the ability to smite Korean automobiles would come into play.

Lol

Thank you though

[Person_Man]

You might want to consider Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 (ie, a Paladin 11 who fell and traded in all of the levels he could for Blackguard). Very potent for that level. Full BAB, 4th level spells, 3d6 Sneak Attack, Dark Blessing, Aura of Despair, Command Undead, Fiendish Servant, etc.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So the only way to get all the bennys of ronin and samuri would be to be a 10 samuri 10 ronin? having traded in samuri levels at 20?

No, not really. You still won't get any of the 11+ samurai abilities. That would include Greater Two Weapon Fighting (renamed), Improved Mass Staredown, or anything else you gain as a samurai after level 10.

As a Samurai 10/Ronin10, you get:

Staredown, Mass Staredown, Ki Smite 2/day, Two Swords as One, Improved Initiative, and Iaijitsu Master from Samurai, and Imfamy, Sneak Attack +4d6, Banzai Charge, and two bonus feats from Ronin.

Personally, I'd go Samurai14/Ronin6. You get the Improved Mass Staredown to Intimidate as a move action rather than as a standard action, and +2d6.

Check my sig, CW Samurai is... well, not *completely* worthless, but without certain sources, is not worth playing. I managed to make a completely viable straight CW Samurai build, and it won in a duel against Fistbeard Beardfist, but it used a feat from another book to make it viable.

[tyckspoon]

Check my sig, CW Samurai is... well, not *completely* worthless, but without certain sources, is not worth playing. I managed to make a completely viable straight CW Samurai build, and it won in a duel against Fistbeard Beardfist, but it used a feat from another book to make it viable.

And would have taken 20-some rounds to actually finish him off after achieving lockdown, if I'm remembering the thread commentary correctly. Admittedly that can be mitigated with a less Samurai-centric build, or just having some party members who do damage more efficiently, but it does highlight Samurai's problems outside of the one fear trick.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And took 20-some rounds to actually finish him off after achieving lockdown. Admittedly that can be mitigated with a less Samurai-centric build, or just having some party members who do damage more efficiently, but it does highlight Samurai's problems outside of the one fear trick.

This is true. The new and updated Takahashi can do it in two rounds, although he has levels in classes other than Samurai now. He's still got 10 levels of CW Samurai, though.

[RagnaroksChosen]

No, not really. You still won't get any of the 11+ samurai abilities. That would include Greater Two Weapon Fighting (renamed), Improved Mass Staredown, or anything else you gain as a samurai after level 10.

As a Samurai 10/Ronin10, you get:

Staredown, Mass Staredown, Ki Smite 2/day, Two Swords as One, Improved Initiative, and Iaijitsu Master from Samurai, and Imfamy, Sneak Attack +4d6, Banzai Charge, and two bonus feats from Ronin.

Personally, I'd go Samurai14/Ronin6. You get the Improved Mass Staredown to Intimidate as a move action rather than as a standard action, and +2d6.

Check my sig, CW Samurai is... well, not *completely* worthless, but without certain sources, is not worth playing. I managed to make a completely viable straight CW Samurai build, and it won in a duel against Fistbeard Beardfist, but it used a feat from another book to make it viable.

That's really cool actually.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's really cool actually.

Actually, when you look at it, it only underscores how bad the class is that it requires that level of munchkining to make the class viable. That level of optimization on any other class ends up in things like Pun-Pun, Hulking Hurler, the Omnisifier, and the Diplomancer. With the CW Samurai? It ends up in an almost playable character, assuming you aren't facing mindless creatures or paladins.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Actually, when you look at it, it only underscores how bad the class is that it requires that level of munchkining to make the class viable. That level of optimization on any other class ends up in things like Pun-Pun, Hulking Hurler, the Omnisifier, and the Diplomancer. With the CW Samurai? It ends up in an almost playable character, assuming you aren't facing mindless creatures or paladins.

what did he take that was cheesy... i couldn't find the actualy characters so i can't see his build.

[Sliver]

what did you take that was cheesy... i couldn't find the actualy characters so i can't see your build.

Yeah... That was Shneekey talking about his own build so...

[RagnaroksChosen]

Yeah... That was Shneekey talking about his own build so...

err ya that... sorry im at work and typing quick.

[Doc Roc]

Actually, if you abuse rebuilding, retraining, or a similar effect such as level drain + thought bottle, you can end up with a really solid build seed of 1/4, which offers good sneak attack combined with full bab, and this allows you to springboard into a few interesting classes sooner than you could.

See, you can trade your samurai levels for ronin levels, as long as you keep one. I find this to be a better deal than the stacking offered otherwise.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

what did he take that was cheesy... i couldn't find the actualy characters so i can't see his build.

A feat which made Demoralized opponents Cower. Instant lock-down. With Mass Staredown, everything within a 30' range of him started cowering. It's not a will save to resist, either. It's HD + Wis Mod + any bonuses to resisting fear.

So, we work on maximizing his Intimidate check.

First off, he gets a +4 from Samurai 6.
Then we get a +2 Synergy from 5 ranks in Bluff
+5 Enhancement bonus from his armor
+3 from the Skill Focus feat
+1 from a trait
Finally, we dip one level of Exemplar. This not only gives another +4, but also lets him Take 10 on his Intimidate checks.

So, without needing to pick up a die, your DC on that roll is 48. At level 13.

Good luck with that.

Oh, yea... it's not Mind Affecting either, although Mindless is immune, so is anything immune to Fear.

He'd have done better as a Barbarian with Intimidating Rage and Never outnumbered.