Single-level PrC dip for Ranger/Scout?

[Curmudgeon]

I'm building a high-level Ranger/Scout (with Swift Hunter, of course). I've got a solution for the 10' move + full attack Scout problem. Given that you can't guarantee being able to move 10' and have an enemy to attack in melee each round, it's a ranged combat style specialist. I'm looking for a prestige class to dip into for just one level to add something extra. I've already got everything through Hide in Plain Sight, with ACFs to swap out spells and animal companion for other goodies. The race is Catfolk (LA buyoff already figured in). This must be a prestige class.

There's just one other requirement: no magic. No spells, no spell-like abilities, no Supernatural abilities, and no magical gear in this campaign setting.

So what's a good prestige class to be the cherry on this martial sundae?

[sonofzeal]

If you're still running off standard actions, Order of the Bow Initiate gets you a decent boost. Nice saves, BAB, and +1d8 damage.

[Curmudgeon]

I looked at that. It's only good within 30', and I was hoping to avoid getting that close to most enemies. Without magic and with only light armor AC isn't particularly high.

[Eldariel]

Well, if you've got Greatbow, EWM for Close-Combat Shot isn't a horrible idea. Who knows when that might be important. Wildrunner [RotW] wouldn't be horrible if you got two levels, but just one level doesn't seem worth it, and it's Elf-only (and Primal Scream is Su, though easy enough to think of as Ex given Barbarian's Rage being Ex). Pious Templar would require 3 levels to be truly useful (getting Weapon Specialization) though dip for Mettle doesn't seem too bad (reflavouring Mettle as Ex and giving up spell progression seem simple modifications to make it compatible with a low-magic settings). True Believer would, though, be utterly useless.

Meh, the best archery-related class you could dip is probably still be Cragtop Archer (and it costs you Mountain Warrior and Far Shot to enter); even the 3.0 PrCs are pretty meh as dips (though both, 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate and Peerless Archer would get you +1d6 ranged SA, and Deepwood Sniper gives you keen arrows as an Ex ability - of course, it doesn't stack with Improved Critical anymore) while requiring feats you probably don't have (Far Shot & Quick Draw for Peerless Archer, Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization for OotBI and Far Shot & Weapon Focus for Deepwood Sniper).


Overall, I can't find a PrC that's useful and cheap enough to enter to be worthwhile. Though if you e.g. have Ranged Skirmisher [Dragon Something] and thus Far Shot, you obviously have more options, particularly Cragtop Archer and Deepwood Sniper.

[Zaq]

I looked at that. It's only good within 30', and I was hoping to avoid getting that close to most enemies. Without magic and with only light armor AC isn't particularly high.

Skirmish already only works within 30', unless you're a Crossbow Sniper. (Or have Sniper's Eye, but that's icky magic.)

If you can, as you say, already full-attack and get skirmish, I most certainly would not go OotBI. You've already solved the standard action problem; why reintroduce it?

What are you really trying to do, here? Increase survivability? Increase damage? Something else?

[Draz74]

Do you qualify for any nonmagical Tome of Battle PrCs? Probably not, if you don't already have several Martial Study feats. But if you do, some of those are worth looking into.

What you'd like is one that gives you a White Raven stance, so you can take Press the Advantage and have another easy way to trigger skirmish damage. But I don't recall if any of the ToB PrCs give White Raven access, and I don't think any of them give a stance on Level 1. So meh, never mind, probably.

Horizon Walker? Fatigue Immunity is always nice. Or Tremorsense.

[Curmudgeon]

No, I don't qualify for any ToB PrCs. Martial Study (Claw at the Moon) + Martial Stance (Sudden Leap) gets me 10+' movement as a swift action on a Jump check, but that's it. That gets me close to entry to Bloodclaw Master, but as that PrC gives a Supernatural benefit at 1st level it's of no use in a magic-free setting.

Horizon Walker's not a bad idea, since Mountain Terrain Mastery would boost my Climb speed (from the Dungeon Specialist Scout Alternative Class Feature) by +10'.

I guess I've been too accustomed to using Sniper's Shot to negate the 30' range limit for skirmish with Ranger/Scout builds. That's obviously not going to fly in this campaign.

[Eldariel]

No, I don't qualify for any ToB PrCs. Martial Study (Claw at the Moon) + Martial Stance (Sudden Leap) gets me 10+' movement as a swift action on a Jump check, but that's it. That gets me close to entry to Bloodclaw Master, but as that PrC gives a Supernatural benefit at 1st level it's of no use in a magic-free setting.

Horizon Walker's not a bad idea, since Mountain Terrain Mastery would boost my Climb speed (from the Dungeon Specialist Scout Alternative Class Feature) by +10'.

I guess I've been too accustomed to using Sniper's Shot to negate the 30' range limit for skirmish with Ranger/Scout builds. That's obviously not going to fly in this campaign.

Ranged Skirmisher [DR346] increases it to 60' but requires Far Shot. That's probably the best way to go. Are you working with any degree of reflavoring SU abilities into EX? Also, by the way, how do you plan on getting additional 10' movements after Sudden Leap is used? Are you using Tumble?

And yeah, I'm joining the choir preaching Horizon Walker; you already have Endurance and it has a few great options.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A one-level dip in Horizion Walker (for Desert Mastery) would be good for immunity to Fatigue.

[Darrin]

Hmm.

Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild, 3.0) would get you keen arrows.

...and I think that's all I got, other than I might try to squeeze in a two-level dip into Highland Stalker to pick up another 1d6 skirmish damage.

[Curmudgeon]

Ranged Skirmisher [DR346] increases it to 60' but requires Far Shot. That's probably the best way to go.

Aha! I knew there was something simpler than chunking through 10 levels of OotBI. Thanks very much for the pointer. I can get Point Blank Shot and Far Shot as part of the trade-off for spells from the Champion of the Wild Alternative Class Feature.

Are you working with any degree of reflavoring SU abilities into EX? Also, by the way, how do you plan on getting additional 10' movements after Sudden Leap is used? Are you using Tumble?

There's absolutely no reflavoring allowed, so no. Supernatural abilities just flat out aren't available.

Yes, I'm using the DC 40 Tumble check. The Sudden Leap boost will let me move far enough to kick in Improved Skirmish once/encounter, and also pick a more advantageous position. Tumble will just let me move the minimum 10'. I only picked this approach because paying an NPC to use Psychic Reformation would let me pick Martial Study (Claw at the Moon), then Martial Stance (Leaping Dragon Stance) and then swap out Martial Study (Claw at the Moon) for Martial Study (Sudden Leap), bypassing the internal restrictions of that feat. That's a bit hinky, but because having a stance via Martial Stance meets the prerequisites of Martial Study (Sudden Leap) it's RAW legal. Still, even if it's clever, it may not be an efficient use of 2 feats (3 with Improved Skirmish) just to Jump 60' as a swift action once each encounter.

[Eldariel]

Real pity you can't use base classes though. One level of Barbarian for Whirling Frenzy would get you speed increase and extra attack, and one level of Warblade would get you Dancing Mongoose for extra attack along with recovery for Sudden Leap

Ah well. As for Su-abilities, are you allowed to just plain take a class without the Su abilities, only getting the Ex ones? Like, would you be allowed to take Pious Templar without Mettle and Spellcasting just for Weapon Spec? Hypothetically of course; just trying to figure out what options are legal.

[Keld Denar]

A one-level dip in Horizion Walker (for Desert Mastery) would be good for immunity to Fatigue.

Immunity to Fatigue is good, but I'm more a fan of the 60' Darkvision, assuming you don't already have it, and if you don't have it, 120' might still be worthwhile. You can Skirmish at 60' with Ranged Skirmisher, much more than 60' would probably be rather wasteful, assuming you don't keep foes at exactly 60', but having 120' would give you that option.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Immunity to Fatigue is good, but I'm more a fan of the 60' Darkvision, assuming you don't already have it, and if you don't have it, 120' might still be worthwhile. You can Skirmish at 60' with Ranged Skirmisher, much more than 60' would probably be rather wasteful, assuming you don't keep foes at exactly 60', but having 120' would give you that option.

This is true, I was more worried about Fatigue preventing charging, but Darkvision can be very handy indeed...

[Curmudgeon]

Ah well. As for Su-abilities, are you allowed to just plain take a class without the Su abilities, only getting the Ex ones?

Yes, that's how it works. I can use any Alternative Class Features; that's how I exchanged the Ranger's spells for feats. But anything magical isn't there. So the Pious Templar's Mettle doesn't work, nor does the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight. But Hexblade Mettle and Eye of Lloth HiPS work fine, just because they're Extraordinary though otherwise identical to the nonfunctioning Supernatural abilities.

I've already got Darkvision 60' from a template, but 120' would be nice to have, too.

[Thurbane]

If you have the skills to spare, a 1 level dip in Master of Masks can get you proficiency with all exotic weapons...

[edit]Oops, just re-read the OP - Persona Masks are a Su ability.[/edit]

[wadledo]

Swordsage!

[Sinfire Titan]

Swordsage!

Supernatural!


Dragonborn+Flyby Attack?

[The Rose Dragon]

Supernatural!

Swordsages get their first supernatural ability on 6th level. They can buy Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw maneuvers, none of which are supernatural.

The bigger problem is that it's not a PrC.

[Douglas]

Yes, I'm using the DC 40 Tumble check. The Sudden Leap boost will let me move far enough to kick in Improved Skirmish once/encounter, and also pick a more advantageous position. Tumble will just let me move the minimum 10'. I only picked this approach because paying an NPC to use Psychic Reformation would let me pick Martial Study (Claw at the Moon), then Martial Stance (Leaping Dragon Stance) and then swap out Martial Study (Claw at the Moon) for Martial Study (Sudden Leap), bypassing the internal restrictions of that feat. That's a bit hinky, but because having a stance via Martial Stance meets the prerequisites of Martial Study (Sudden Leap) it's RAW legal. Still, even if it's clever, it may not be an efficient use of 2 feats (3 with Improved Skirmish) just to Jump 60' as a swift action once each encounter.

If you are 18th level or higher and willing to spend a third feat on it, changing that to Martial Study (any White Raven maneuver) x2 and Martial Stance (Press the Advantage) would, combined with tumble changing your 5' steps to 10', let you trigger Improved Skirmish every round.

[Curmudgeon]

If you are 18th level or higher and willing to spend a third feat on it, changing that to Martial Study (any White Raven maneuver) x2 and Martial Stance (Press the Advantage) would, combined with tumble changing your 5' steps to 10', let you trigger Improved Skirmish every round.

That's a pretty nifty idea, though the 4 feat cost and requirement to dedicate my level 18 feat to Martial Study is going to be hard to swing, even with a couple of flaws. I'd be a DEX-intensive Ranger without even a feat to spare for Weapon Finesse. I'd have 2 White Raven maneuvers useable 1/encounter each -- and of course those are melee attacks and I'd have precious little to offer in melee.

I'm going to have to mull this over some more.

Now I'm thinking Assassin for my 1-level PrC dip. I'd get poison use, which could be important in a setting without magic, plus 1d6 sneak attack. Even disregarding the useless death attack and the unavailable spells, this is decent power for 1 class level. One good thing about no magic: there's no detecting alignments.

[Eldariel]

That's a pretty nifty idea, though the 4 feat cost and requirement to dedicate my level 18 feat to Martial Study is going to be hard to swing, even with a couple of flaws. I'd be a DEX-intensive Ranger without even a feat to spare for Weapon Finesse. I'd have 2 White Raven maneuvers useable 1/encounter each -- and of course those are melee attacks and I'd have precious little to offer in melee.

White Raven Tactics could be very useful out of the lower level White Raven maneuvers.

[Draz74]

Yeah, White Raven Tactics 1/encounter is totally worthy of a feat all on its own.

I don't suppose you could swing a Novice Crown of the White Raven in this low-magic campaign, to save one feat?

[Curmudgeon]

White Raven Tactics could be very useful out of the lower level White Raven maneuvers.

Possibly, but it's very situational. The range is just 10' and I'll be forced to move 20' each round just to trigger Improved Skirmish for my ranged attacks -- and of course to keep enemies within the 60' range limit. Probably I'll be within 10' of an ally at some point, but the way that boost is written makes it unlikely to be of much use. With a high-DEX Ranger I'll have good initiative, and only allies who have already acted before me in the current round can benefit.

I don't suppose you could swing a Novice Crown of the White Raven in this low-magic campaign, to save one feat?

It's not low magic; it's no magic at all.

[Draz74]

It's not low magic; it's no magic at all.

I wasn't sure if that extended to items. Righty ho, then.

[Thurbane]

A 1 level dip in Dervish gets you AC Bonus, Dervish Dance, Move Mastery and Slashing Blades, all Ex. Very feat intensive, though.

Justiciar gets Bring Em Back Alive and Nonlethal Strike.