"We Just Were Trying to Keeping The Party Together"

[FerhagoRosewood]

At my last session with my D&D buddies, who are friends from high school and college, I had my first major blow up regarding D&D. I really got into it with a good friend over one line that he said to me: "We just were trying to keeping the party together."

The game is 3.5 and underwater, level 3. Originally the party was an Aventi Paladin (me), Merfolk Druid (my then pregnant friend), and three Naga (Warcraft D20) each a Ranger, Beguiler (the only evil alignment but has it hidden), & a Swordsage/Warblade (I forget which). In this setting, the Naga were defeated by the Aventi along with several other races and are basically the Nazi Germany to the Aventi's Allies. Long story short, the Merfolk Druid had to drop out due to real life issues (Jack was born on October 1st. ^.^) So my only in character ally was gone.

A session later, I was going a solo run to meet up with the Naga (They call themselves the NN). I ran into a village being slaughtered by Saguin. I had wrongly heard that they all left except for the purple cloaked leader. Instead, they were all still there but I still went for it. I was as good as dead until the DM went easy on me. Then the leader, who had just ordered the genocide of an entire village of Darfellan, asked me to give a message to my leaders which was basically "You're next." As my character, I openly refused and called him scum. The beguiler player blew up, who always has had problems with people playing paladins, and said I was basically asking to be killed. He said that my character concept was getting in the way the game and the party. Remember that.

So later that same session we halted a meeting between Drows and Saguin killing the Drow first (leaving two for interrogating and one for the Beguiler to brainwash; my Pally doesn't know what's her fate.) Then we posed as the Drow to defeat the Saguin. As with the first session, our group split up and went back to our separate bases while still not trusting each other.

Last Saturday, I somehow sensed that I wasn't going to play alot this time so I started working on a character for later session that night. First a man came into their civilization, took it over, and accused them of mutiny against the military & the king. They fought and killed a few guards, even mounted an attempt to over throw the guy but they failed. So they were forced to leave. At the same time, my commanding officer stormed into my room covered in his own blood. Captain Kirk (who's more Zapp Brannigan than anything, quite awesome though) had been almost killed by a "lady of the night". Hearing that he was being chased, he called out for me to help him escape. ...to the people that were chasing him. So I basically went out and blocked the hallway, passively as I wouldn't hurt my own people. And I was beaten and taken to a prison to be executed to send a message. It turns out that Zapp supposedly tried to kill the queen.

While being read my last rites, Kirk stormed in and saved me. It turns out that he knew nothing about what was said. He suggested we split up and I try to find a plot important item. So here I am, hiding myself from the people as an award is out on my head. The Naga happen to be in the same town and recognize me before I see them. The beguiler instantly casts sleep on me and I roll a nat 1. My character wakes up, is cuffed to a chair, and is tortured for information. Information he would have given up since these people aided him, even though they were on different sides of a past war.

After this, I was released under the basic guise of being a lesser member of the party (a free prisoner). After hearing of the plot item, they wanted to talk to Kirk. Since my character is styled to be the proto-typical JRPG main character, I lead them to him. Kirk was in the Merfolk city and was playing it up big in an inn to a bunch of the females. He suggested, for secrecy, to head up to his room.

Here's where things go horribly wrong. Capt'n says, "So you captured the Naga I suggested you go find, huh?" The beguiler instantly casts sleep on Kirk & I. I roll a nat 1 AGAIN. So now Kirk and I are tied up & tortured for information yet again. Information that was going to flow freely. And in the middle of torturing Kirk in front of my Paladin, they MAKE him order me to work with them.

I was, out of character, very annoyed with all of this. And said so, that I was basically an NPC at this point. That's when the beguiler player said "We just were trying to keeping the party together." I blew up, we got into a huge verbal fight, and he couldn't understand why I was upset that his character concept actually ruined any semblance of party bonding. My Paladin, when NOT being tortured or being sleep'd (the third time by this point), was actively helping them before all of this and even healed them.

I approached the DM about all of this and he agreed that the torturing of Kirk pretty much was unnecessary but shrugged. I spoke, separately, to the ToB Naga player who also thought it was pretty effed up but he ran with it. So now I'm stuck in a party where I'm an outcast. Meanwhile, the beguiler is starting a cult of brainwashing starting with the drow.

Was I right in being upset?

[arguskos]

Yes, though a blow-up was not a good response (it never really is after all). My advice? Leave the group. The Beguiler's player is being a bastard and most likely knows it, especially when he's disregarding other players and giving lame excuses about it.

[Kylarra]

I don't think the campaign is headed anywhere good at this point. You should probably have a long OOC discussion about expectations and start a new campaign; or just leave the group.

[FerhagoRosewood]

Yes, though a blow-up was not a good response (it never really is after all). My advice? Leave the group. The Beguiler's player is being a bastard and most likely knows it, especially when he's disregarding other players and giving lame excuses about it.

Not an option, as I'm a DM for them (we trade every weekend) and it's just a friends spat. Besides, it's never gotten to the point where I completely stopped having fun.

[arguskos]

Not an option, as I'm a DM for them (we trade every weekend) and it's just a friends spat. Besides, it's never gotten to the point where I completely stopped having fun.

It's ALWAYS an option. That sort of behavior is unacceptable, even between friends, ESPECIALLY between friends! If my friends ever did that to me without a warning or my permission OOC, I'd be REALLY pissed off and would be looking for blood and vengeance.

I say walk away from that game, and be clear in yours that such behavior isn't tolerated, since it ruins fun for all involved.

[FerhagoRosewood]

It's ALWAYS an option. That sort of behavior is unacceptable, even between friends, ESPECIALLY between friends! If my friends ever did that to me without a warning or my permission OOC, I'd be REALLY pissed off and would be looking for blood and vengeance.

I say walk away from that game, and be clear in yours that such behavior isn't tolerated, since it ruins fun for all involved.

See, the thing is that it's not his actions that made me mad. In fact, I was playing along with it and even pretended to get shocked. I was annoyed, yes, but not mad. At least not until the topic line came up. It's more having to do with how he views a Paladin should be played against... Well everyone else that's played a Paladin other than the Ranger player (who plays a Gnome Paladin prankster of Garl Glittergold and has a golden dragon he's raising).

No matter what we, the only two that have tried to play Paladins (the ToB Naga player and I), have been wrong in one way or another. When... I don't think what we've done have been that far off the mark. Believe me when I say, I love all these guys and our group. I wouldn't dream of leaving because they are that awesome. This was just an unfortunate incident that I had to blow out steam over.

[Sliver]

Being upset is fine, no one likes being forced to do stuff he wouldn't want his character to do, for no reason at that..

You don't want to leave, and it's not always an option that people would want to take (I didn't. I left my group, friends, with greate unease and I still struggle to find an online gaming group.. time zones and such are a great pain).

It looks like the others just flow with it so I don't really think an OOC talk with any of them would change much, so here I think you should bend a bit and do something to change yourself. That paladin is becoming an NPC, so talk to your DM about leaving it as such and make a new character that works better with the evil beguiler, as it looks like he is setting the tone of the game. Be sure that you like the concept, but you should try to be flexible here. Or be an elf next, to be immune to sleep.

[FerhagoRosewood]

Or be an elf next, to be immune to sleep.

*Snorted very loudly at this.*

It's funny because it's true.

Yeah, I think switching out might be a better option at this point but at the same time... This game was made because the beguiler and I wanted to play an underwater game. Me for the shark mount, a la Lien, and him for the interest. Somewhere along the way, our shared interest lead to two different paths.

[Sliver]

You could take the LE paladin variant. Fiendish sharks.. Be of the beguiler's race or cult or w/e and have the same goal or something, so that he won't have a reason to put you to sleep, or an elf/warforged/something else so he won't be able to do so...

Edit: although the paladin would be best if you want a shark as a special mount like Lien, it does come late for a paladin (and you aren't there, or sleep wouldn't work against both you and another NPC..) so you might want to make a NE or C/LN druid..

[karnokoto]

I can completely understand your feelings towards the Beguiler player and you were very justified in feeling that way, but blowing up at him (or anyone) is never the right response.

Our group had a similar experience recently.
We have a less-than-amiable (and very unlawful, but not to the point of being evil) rogue and an honourbound paladin-type in our group. It goes without saying they dont always get along.
Earlier in the campaign we hooked up with what was essentially Blackbeard- the scourge of the seas. Who had a teleporting pirate ship. INCREDIBLY useful, especially since we were allied with this pirate.
Our paladin was a prince of an incredibly small, incredibly dead kingdom- no one lived there. Long story. But our base of operations when not adventuring was in the old palace. Anyway, we offered a secret underground cavern that you could come in from off the sea as a safe berth for this pirate.

Story came around to where we were discussing things with what was basically the military general in a country that HAAAATES pirates. The paladin character tells this general where the pirate is and that there is a secret cavern where he makes berth.

Now, not only were we getting a cut of the booty from letting him dock there, but also free instantaneous transportation AND more political clout with the guild we all originated from. He was basically our meal ticket.
Sooo this general rouses his navy and kills the pirate and his entire fleet.
Basically the paladin caused a political fustercluck all because he was 'playing his character.'
We're all staring at him going 'whaaaat is wrong with you?' So now the rogue is planning to kill him in his sleep and my chaotic bard may not be too far away from helping the schmuck. BUT, we're nice people, and I doubt it will actually happen. None of us blew up at the ninny, although we all politely told him he had just made a huge mistake. He's one of those people that speaks before he thinks. A couple hours later he apologized after he realized what he had done.


Point is, some people just do stupid things, or make characters that totally don't fit with the party. Characters with different alignments or even players that dont actually roleplay the alignment they picked for their character.
You can always solve the situation by speaking calmly, being polite and such...I hate to use a cliche phrase but you really CAN catch more flies with honey.
Why you would want to catch flies I'm not sure, but the point stands.
As for my story, I know everyone is sitting there going 'I'm not even sure how that relates' and honestly, at this point, neither do I...but when I started typing it makes perfect sense and its a big bit of text so I'm certainly not erasing it now. 'Cool story bro' indeed :D

[FerhagoRosewood]

You could take the LE paladin variant. Fiendish sharks.. Be of the beguiler's race or cult or w/e and have the same goal or something, so that he won't have a reason to put you to sleep, or an elf/warforged/something else so he won't be able to do so...

I'm not so sure Ari (my paladin) would go evil as he is... a mix between Kif Kroker and Tidus from Final Fantasy. Not very likely to see a hyperactive LE Paladin bounce a ball around (Blitzball exists in this world)... Playing a new character with all those sorts of things makes sense too. I dunno, I'll see about it.

@ karnokoto: Oh I completely agree I did the wrong thing. If I could take it back and change the reaction, I totally would have. But I don't have universe changing powers so that's unlikely.

[karnokoto]

@ karnokoto: Oh I completely agree I did the wrong thing. If I could take it back and change the reaction, I totally would have. But I don't have universe changing powers so that's unlikely.

I know a guy...

;)

[Ceaon]

I think the DM should have been a little more active in all this. If he (she?) runs a party with a LG paladin and three Naga, in a setting like this, problems between players are to be expected.

That being said, I vote for rolling up a new character. Maybe someone related to your current character, but with a more evil, pro-Naga streak to him. Then, your current paladin can become an NPC and an enemy or reluctant ally while he works his way up in the paladin organization or whatever.

Also, why is the first advice always given "leave the group"? I'd say that's just problem-avoiding behavior and that doesn't solve anything. Even if you plan to leave a group, talking about it first is almost always better than not talking about it.

[arguskos]

Also, why is the first advice always given "leave the group"? I'd say that's just problem-avoiding behavior and that doesn't solve anything. Even if you plan to leave a group, talking about it first is almost always better than not talking about it.

It's not always my first response, but it is when the story is one of a really bad player encounter and examples are given of bad play and inability to be a team player (the core of D&D).

In this case, since you've expanded upon the situation and illuminated that this is a highly isolated incident, I'd say talk with him, inform the DM you'd like to reroll into a more "party-friendly" role, and do so. That way, everyone wins.

[FerhagoRosewood]

I think the DM should have been a little more active in all this. If he (she?) runs a party with a LG paladin and three Naga, in a setting like this, problems between players are to be expected.

Well the Merfolk Druid was supposed to be my back up, but when she had to leave that set up the situation you see myself in.

That being said, I vote for rolling up a new character. Maybe someone related to your current character, but with a more evil, pro-Naga streak to him. Then, your current paladin can become an NPC and an enemy of reluctant ally while he works his way up in the paladin organization or whatever.

Honestly, I think you're (and most in the thread saying so) are right. But the masochistic side in me says that I want to see Ari to the end. Though playing an evil character that joins the Naga will most likely be the next course of action. I'm going to give one more session and if problems still arise, I'll ask my DM for a change.

[Ceaon]

It's not always my first response, but it is when the story is one of a really bad player encounter and examples are given of bad play and inability to be a team player (the core of D&D).

In this case, since you've expanded upon the situation and illuminated that this is a highly isolated incident, I'd say talk with him, inform the DM you'd like to reroll into a more "party-friendly" role, and do so. That way, everyone wins.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you! I do feel your advice was a bit extreme, but it would have indeed been less so if this hadn't been an isolated event, but everyday torture.

Honestly, I think you're (and most in the thread saying so) are right. But the masochistic side in me says that I want to see Ari to the end. Though playing an evil character that joins the Naga will most likely be the next course of action. I'm going to give one more session and if problems still arise, I'll ask my DM for a change.

You could also ask your DM if you can "edit: Ari. He sees the evil around him, cracks and falls. That would make for interesting roleplaying. Since your DM allows ToB, I'm sure you can ask him to give you some special or boon for playing a fallen paladin.

[arguskos]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you! I do feel your advice was a bit extreme, but it would have indeed been less so if this hadn't been an isolated event, but everyday torture.

No offense taken. I just prefer to explain my actions. The way it was presented at first, it wasn't clear if this was the last straw or some one-time offense. The former is "leave time". The latter is "talk it over, possible re-roll" time.

[FerhagoRosewood]

You could also ask your DM if you can "edit: Ari. He sees the evil around him, cracks and falls. That would make for interesting roleplaying. Since your DM allows ToB, I'm sure you can ask him to give you some special or boon for playing a fallen paladin.

Eh... I have a love/hate relationship with ToB. I like some of the concepts but the ridiculous dice rolls are a bit too much for me... Plus I like Ari too much and having him fall would be depressing considering he's only one of two good guys that knows all that's happened. A newer character would be better if I was to switch out.

[Solaris]

Why not ask the other players to play a more Good-friendly party?

[Sliver]

Why not ask the other players to play a more Good-friendly party?

Because, if after such a blow-up, it seems that he is the only one that has problems with the style of the game so far..

But you might be able to work a solution.. such as "Ari already works with you, not against you. I ready an action to smite as soon as you cast sleep next time"

[Solaris]

Because, if after such a blow-up, it seems that he is the only one that has problems with the style of the game so far..

But you might be able to work a solution.. such as "Ari already works with you, not against you. I ready an action to smite as soon as you cast sleep next time"

From what I gather, the torture was the beguiler's idea and the other player just went along with it. The beguiler's player coerced the OP into playing the way he wanted to play. Why should the OP change, when the beguiler's just as much an offender? The OP paladin, from what was posted, hasn't really hindered play - even though he wanted to stop the beguiler from making a brainwashed cult. Heck, I'm pretty sure Ari fell simply from associating with this beguiler.
Then again, I've always had little patience for people wanking to fantasies about being the bad guy in my D&D game. It looks to me like this beguiler, who's used his magic to force the paladin's player around, is the sort of evil character who doesn't play well with others.

[Glyde]

Out of all of this, the thing that springs to my mind the most is that he slept a third level character and a no-way-hes-first-level NPC. Sleep only affects up to 4 HD of creatures, if I understand correctly, unless there's something about the beguiler I'm missing.


Anyway, this is a case of the player being controlled by the character, not the other way around. Your beguiler friend is most certainly in the wrong in the fact that he makes assumptions that aren't true and won't listen to reason. It's possible, though, that he's only acting as he thinks his character should act.

And I wouldn't want to meet that character in a dark alley. 7 int can be a dangerous thing, I suppose.


I'm going to join the "Smite his face off" group. That's always fun.

[Dacia Brabant]

I think if you have to make a new character then the beguiler should have to make a new one as well, since he's just as guilty of trying to dictate playstyle and course of action to the party as you are, actually much moreso, and certainly his fun should not be at another player's expense. PvP should only be allowed when both players have consented to it and are ready/expecting it.

Maybe you could switch roles, have you be the jerkass anti-hero and he can be the goody-goody Pollyanna type--you could roll up a Paladin of Tyranny and he can be a, oh I don't know, how about a mermaid Bard?

*Under the sea, under the sea, there'll be no accusations, just friendly crustaceans, under the seeeaaaa!*

[woodenbandman]

Okay so you need to have a talk with this player. Be like "hey man wtf was that?" Ask him to explain his side of the story first, so that he won't get defensive, and then explain to him your side. Say "look, man. I don't want to have trouble with you. I was your ally through the whole thing. But you're really pushing it with your unnecessary torture, and if you push it much further, I'll have to retaliate. Can we try just being friends in-character?"

If he pulls something about "paladins are blah," cut him off and say "paladin is a game concept, and I interpret my paladin this way. Don't respond to what you think a paladin is, respond to my character."

I've learned how to be a paladin by playing with a player who just absolutely could not, no matter how hard he tried, be a paladin. He tried so hard in a WoD campaign to be a paladin type guy. My character was just originally rolled to be a joke character, a drunken kung-fu master, who eventually turned into a paladin (and a bearded norseman). Here's a few tips I have on being a paladin, which you may not need but may find useful to explain to this guy.

1: It's Good first, then Lawful. A paladin is a champion of good who will not stray from his moral code. He is not the local inquisitor who donates to charity. There are exceptions, though. If you, as a paladin, could save the world by breaking your moral code, you would do it and suffer for it after. I believe that a paladin should be expected to break his moral code, not by design, but just in the interest of doing the most good. That means that your DM shouldn't constantly manufacture situations where you could potentially break your code, but if you find a solution that involves breaking your moral code, if the benefits are high enough, you should do it.

2: The paladin's code fits on one side of a bar napkin. Among other things, it means that the law of the land is not the paladin's code. A paladin can break laws without falling, but he'll usually try not to.

Example: In the society in which our game was set, recreational drug use often resulted in multiple years in jail, because it was seen as a plague on society. The drug dealer I arrested was undeniably a bad man, selling his drugs that were cut with bleach. But there was a kid who didn't deserve to spend his life in jail. So I let him off with a warning he'd never forget. Illegal? Yeah. But I, being an alcoholic, was nobody to judge, and it would've been a senseless waste to put the kid away for 8 years for a bit of coke.

3: There is such thing as a lesser evil. This is huge because most paladins I've heard stories about will beat a peasant for stealing. That is horribly wrong. That peasant needs that bread or coin or whatever he stole. The good thing to do would be to offer reparations to the owner, then try to help the peasant out. (realistically I realize that you can't do this all the time, but once to establish your character should be plenty).

Example: This same guy tried to throw 2 defenseless people out into the zombie apocalypse for having relations in his house. Should they have had relations in his house? No. Is that justification for throwing them out? Only in Oceania.

4: Crime is not evil. Another huge one. A pirate does not, by default, have to be evil. He could be stealing from a corrupt person intentionally. He could be robin hood. Don't judge a book by it's cover. And don't rely so heavily on Detect Evil. Evil doesn't equal smiting. Evil can be redeemed.

The pirate in your case seemed like a pretty okay guy. Unless he happened to kill a few dozen people in cold blood and you forgot to mention it.

[Sliver]

Why should the OP change, when the beguiler's just as much an offender?

Because the beguiler isn't having problems with how things are going on, and the other players(and DM) don't have issues with it too, so it comes down to OP against beguiler. The beguiler's player could say that this is the way he enjoys the game and the OP is trying to tell him how to play. Without someone else to be on the OP side, only he cares about what how it will roll from here.

So he can try to convince someone that the beguiler's player is ruining the game, something that won't work probably due to others just following up the beguiler's actions (saying "Yeah, you are right, he is wrong" followed by a shrug is not backing you up), or he can just deal with it himself by playing as is and solving it IC, or making a new character, or doing what he doesn't want to do and leave.

[jindra34]

Honestly Yeah you do have a right to be pretty upset about this. Also I would advise roleplaying it out as part of the solution, your character has been kidnapped and tortured twice by someone you thought to be an ally, the same person tortured your commanding officer, and because you have someone to report to I assume your part of some sort of orginization. Go up the line in game and 'report' the beguiler to your superiors, and I'm pretty sure you can justify staying with the group to watch them and report back to said superiors. I think you get the idea, but the sad thing is that the beguiler in trying to hold the party together probably just shattered it.

[hamishspence]

1: It's Good first, then Lawful. A paladin is a champion of good who will not stray from his moral code. He is not the local inquisitor who donates to charity. There are exceptions, though. If you, as a paladin, could save the world by breaking your moral code, you would do it and suffer for it after. I believe that a paladin should be expected to break his moral code, not by design, but just in the interest of doing the most good. That means that your DM shouldn't constantly manufacture situations where you could potentially break your code, but if you find a solution that involves breaking your moral code, if the benefits are high enough, you should do it.

2: The paladin's code fits on one side of a bar napkin. Among other things, it means that the law of the land is not the paladin's code. A paladin can break laws without falling, but he'll usually try not to.

Example: In the society in which our game was set, recreational drug use often resulted in multiple years in jail, because it was seen as a plague on society. The drug dealer I arrested was undeniably a bad man, selling his drugs that were cut with bleach. But there was a kid who didn't deserve to spend his life in jail. So I let him off with a warning he'd never forget. Illegal? Yeah. But I, being an alcoholic, was nobody to judge, and it would've been a senseless waste to put the kid away for 8 years for a bit of coke.

3: There is such thing as a lesser evil. This is huge because most paladins I've heard stories about will beat a peasant for stealing. That is horribly wrong. That peasant needs that bread or coin or whatever he stole. The good thing to do would be to offer reparations to the owner, then try to help the peasant out. (realistically I realize that you can't do this all the time, but once to establish your character should be plenty).

Example: This same guy tried to throw 2 defenseless people out into the zombie apocalypse for having relations in his house. Should they have had relations in his house? No. Is that justification for throwing them out? Only in Oceania.

4: Crime is not evil. Another huge one. A pirate does not, by default, have to be evil. He could be stealing from a corrupt person intentionally. He could be robin hood. Don't judge a book by it's cover. And don't rely so heavily on Detect Evil. Evil doesn't equal smiting. Evil can be redeemed.

The pirate in your case seemed like a pretty okay guy. Unless he happened to kill a few dozen people in cold blood and you forgot to mention it.

This is a pretty fair summary.

Where do monsters fall on this (and what kind of monsters)?

I lean toward bringing up Point 4 "evil doesn't equal smiting" for anything short of fiends.

And if the fiend is nuanced enough (and the setting allows fiends and mortals to interact peacefully, be redeemed, etc, like Planescape does) Point 4 covers them, as well.

[mem0man]

You know how sometimes there is the evil guy in a party tht hides his alignment and works against the party in the background while seeming to be perfectly with the party objective overall? Yah, it isn't just evil people that can do that. Lawful Good doesn't always have to be out there and saintly. Just...work with the other people outside the Beguiler. You sound like you are all friends and in no way like you want to split away so it all seems like a very setting and campaign specific gripe. Turn the tables this once and fun should be had by all or at least the Beguiler will have egg on his face and an army at his doorstep.

[Blue Warlock]

From what I can see, at least from a RAW perspective*, the Paladin and the Beguiler can no longer adventure together. The beguiler tortured people, which in the BoVD gets the always evil tag IIRC. So now your paladin is consorting with an evil character, meaning you can't stay with him or you will probably lose your paladin powers.
I would probably either roll up a new character or get permission from the Beguilers player to try and kill his character. Things can't stay the way they are without you getting severely shafted however, from a mechanical perspective and a roleplay one (you get tied up and don't get to do jacksquat)


*RAW only intended for use in a game without house rules, please consult DM if the condition persists outside of this environment. Warning: may also cause Pun Pun.

[Kylarra]

Actually, it sounds like he was already in the party with the beguiler and actively aiding him, so by rights he should've fallen already.