Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 66
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    root9125's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default What do people hate?

    As a new DM, I can't really tell when people *aren't* enjoying the adventure. So what are some common mistakes people make that bore the players?

    Thanks!
    I cast Prismatic Ray on your puny plot hook!

    Shiny avatar by Edwin.


    Spoiler
    Show

    I Am A: Neutral Good Elf Wizard/Cleric (2nd/1st Level)
    Ability Scores:
    Strength-14
    Dexterity-14
    Constitution-12
    Intelligence-17
    Wisdom-10
    Charisma-11
    Alignment:Neutral Good
    Race:Elven
    Primary Class:Wizard
    Secondary Class:Cleric

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hadrian_Emrys's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Freeland, WA

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Railroading. Giving a nudge in the right direction from time to time is fine and well, but forcing players along a storyline they don't care for often leads to misery and boredom.
    Avatar by Zarah
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    Toho has retroactive powers of awesome. He makes things that he hasn't done, and have already happened, better by his existence
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganurath View Post
    If anything, the term should be What Would Toho Do?
    Of course, in all situations the answer is Be A Badass.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    massive railroading
    DMPCs
    too much of either heavy RPing or Hack 'n Slash, depending on your group.
    riddles

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
     
    industrious's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Mordor
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Railroading is a big one. If the PC goes outside your plot, and then get forced back into it, they don't like it. If they come up with a creative, out-of-the box way of solving a problem, reward them.

    Ex. You are on a boat. You see a set of pale luminescent eyes peering at you from twenty feet away.
    "I attack with my longbow!" (rolls)
    ...you miss.
    "But I got a natural 20!"
    ...you still miss. That person is an important part of the plot. Stop killing my NPCs!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    u?
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarra View Post
    massive railroading
    DMPCs
    too much of either heavy RPing or Hack 'n Slash, depending on your group.
    riddles
    Riddles/Puzzle at the wrong time. After you DM a bit more, you'll understand when, and when not to through out a puzzle/riddle at your players.
    Need work done in Photoshop? Random other graphic editting oddjobs? Avatars/sigs? PM please .

    Spoiler
    Show
    Avatar by Dragonrider

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Mushroom Ninja's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadrian_Emrys View Post
    Railroading. Giving a nudge in the right direction from time to time is fine and well, but forcing players along a storyline they don't care for often leads to misery and boredom.
    This, this, and this again. Railroading will not only cause much annoyance, it will cause rebellion. In an extremely railroaded game I'm in right now, another player and I have started a sport we call "Screwing with the DM's traintracks".

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tengu_temp's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Poland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Screwing with their characters without their consent. Changing their alignment, forcing them to take levels in this and that, causing paladins to fall, hacking off their limbs when regeneration is not easily available, raping them, et cetera.

    Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
    Spoiler
    Show





  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Blatant railroading.

    No plot at all and the players have no clue what to do

    Not giving the players the ability to play their character

    Letting the players have their character be overbearing on everyone elses

    impossible opponents

    boringly easy opponents

    not enough description

    vividly Tolkienesque descriptions about everything and their shoes

    immemorial npcs

    annoyingly memorable npcs

    GM pcs

    lack of time for each character (especially when the group is divided for an extended period of time)

    encounters that are painfully set up so only 1 or 2 characters can shine

    f**king tier 1 characters in a group of tier 4-5s

    f**king tier 4-5 characters in a group of tier 1s (note for this and the last one, only really a problem if one group or the other blatantly dominates the game so the other can't do anything)

    Being a stickler for rules

    Being too loose with the rules

    GMing is a balancing act. When I started out I annoyingly asked everyone at the group what they liked and didn't like and begged them to be as candid and harsh as possible. Now I'm regarded as the only competent GM of the group.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2009-10-15 at 08:04 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Orc in the Playground
     
    root9125's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Thanks. :D

    Is it railroading if I have a plot set, they totally derail the plot (read: killed my freaking NPCs again and started an international war), and have to live with the consequences of their actions (read: joined up with the Evil group under implied threat of violence)? Or should they be allowed to do nearly anything they like, without regard to consequence? Because... saying "okay, you're chaotic evil now" doesn't seem like enough. XD
    I cast Prismatic Ray on your puny plot hook!

    Shiny avatar by Edwin.


    Spoiler
    Show

    I Am A: Neutral Good Elf Wizard/Cleric (2nd/1st Level)
    Ability Scores:
    Strength-14
    Dexterity-14
    Constitution-12
    Intelligence-17
    Wisdom-10
    Charisma-11
    Alignment:Neutral Good
    Race:Elven
    Primary Class:Wizard
    Secondary Class:Cleric

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Flickerdart's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by root9125 View Post
    Thanks. :D

    Is it railroading if I have a plot set, they totally derail the plot (read: killed my freaking NPCs again and started an international war), and have to live with the consequences of their actions (read: joined up with the Evil group under implied threat of violence)? Or should they be allowed to do nearly anything they like, without regard to consequence? Because... saying "okay, you're chaotic evil now" doesn't seem like enough. XD
    "Ok, you're Chaotic Evil now, and the entire Paladin Order of Pelor is coming to curb-stomp you. Your new allies are willing to offer you shelter in exchange for etc etc etc."
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Orc in the Playground
     
    root9125's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    "Ok, you're Chaotic Evil now, and the entire Paladin Order of Pelor is coming to curb-stomp you. Your new allies are willing to offer you shelter in exchange for etc etc etc."
    Yeah, like this, but is it railroading to have the "etc etc etc" *actually happen*, or is it necessary to have my NPCs (their new "allies") *enforce* the terms of the bargain?
    I cast Prismatic Ray on your puny plot hook!

    Shiny avatar by Edwin.


    Spoiler
    Show

    I Am A: Neutral Good Elf Wizard/Cleric (2nd/1st Level)
    Ability Scores:
    Strength-14
    Dexterity-14
    Constitution-12
    Intelligence-17
    Wisdom-10
    Charisma-11
    Alignment:Neutral Good
    Race:Elven
    Primary Class:Wizard
    Secondary Class:Cleric

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Iku Rex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by industrious View Post
    Ex. You are on a boat. You see a set of pale luminescent eyes peering at you from twenty feet away.
    "I attack with my longbow!" (rolls)
    ...you miss.
    "But I got a natural 20!"
    ...you still miss. That person is an important part of the plot. Stop killing my NPCs!
    http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=780

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hadrian_Emrys's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Freeland, WA

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by root9125 View Post
    Thanks. :D

    Is it railroading if I have a plot set, they totally derail the plot (read: killed my freaking NPCs again and started an international war), and have to live with the consequences of their actions (read: joined up with the Evil group under implied threat of violence)? Or should they be allowed to do nearly anything they like, without regard to consequence? Because... saying "okay, you're chaotic evil now" doesn't seem like enough. XD
    No. That's rational. Railroading would have been if they couldn't kill the npcs, and if they somehow could, another would appear to fill the same role.
    Avatar by Zarah
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    Toho has retroactive powers of awesome. He makes things that he hasn't done, and have already happened, better by his existence
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganurath View Post
    If anything, the term should be What Would Toho Do?
    Of course, in all situations the answer is Be A Badass.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jiriku's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    +1 railroading. Also, forced character stupidity or blindness. By this I mean a situation where the DM fails to inform players of things that would be blatantly obvious to anyone in the PC's situation, or rules that the character has done something boneheadedly stupid simply because the players have not explicitly stating they are not doing it.

    Example of the forced character stupidity: My character, on a 20' wide balcony with a heavy stone railing, is taking cover behind the railing. An enemy fires at me, hits the cover, and blows away about a 3' wide stretch of the railing. I continue to cover behind the railing. On the following round, the monster shoots again, and the DM informs me that I've been hit because I was "taking cover" in the 3' section of destroyed railing. Apparently because I didn't explicitly state that I was going to shift 2' to the left to gain cover behind the undamaged railing, my character choose to stand in place and try to cover behind thin air. Duh.

    Example of forced character blindness: characters hear a strange noise, and say they look around for the source of the noise. Monster is located on the ceiling. DM rules that the characters don't see the monster because they didn't specify they were looking at the ceiling.

    In general, players get most upset when the DM arbitrarily forces their characters to act foolish or incompetent, or when he "steals" power from them by arbitrarily causing their abilities to fail. As DM, you never need to do this: players will act foolish and incompetent and fail in spectacular ways entirely without your intervention!

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by root9125 View Post
    Thanks. :D

    Is it railroading if I have a plot set, they totally derail the plot (read: killed my freaking NPCs again and started an international war), and have to live with the consequences of their actions (read: joined up with the Evil group under implied threat of violence)? Or should they be allowed to do nearly anything they like, without regard to consequence? Because... saying "okay, you're chaotic evil now" doesn't seem like enough. XD
    Depending on the players (some just want to kick down doors and kill dragons) I would generally say make sure that they understand that their actions have consequences. (And rookie mistake. Always keep 3-4 separate plots in your notes, chances are your big one will crumble before your eyes as that annoyed mage gets bored with your villain and decides to disintegrate him)

    If they kill the king, the royal family will be out to get them with all their vast resources. If they're going on a rampage across the country, well there are gods for a reason in the campaign world.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    deuxhero's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fl

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Lazy Tolkien plagiarism. Nothing makes a world more mundane (except setting it in medieval Europe, avoid that as well).

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Orc in the Playground
     
    root9125's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Lazy Tolkien plagiarism. Nothing makes a world more mundane (except setting it in medieval Europe, avoid that as well).
    Heh, I did the opposite. I took it on myself to write backstory for an entire universe before I proposed running a campaign. I thought to myself, if I can't write this stuff, what will I do with NPCs and plotlines?

    Unfortunately, it leads to a lot of explaining as to what countries do what, and why. Meh, the price you pay, I guess.
    I cast Prismatic Ray on your puny plot hook!

    Shiny avatar by Edwin.


    Spoiler
    Show

    I Am A: Neutral Good Elf Wizard/Cleric (2nd/1st Level)
    Ability Scores:
    Strength-14
    Dexterity-14
    Constitution-12
    Intelligence-17
    Wisdom-10
    Charisma-11
    Alignment:Neutral Good
    Race:Elven
    Primary Class:Wizard
    Secondary Class:Cleric

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    industrious's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Mordor
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Exactly. DM of the Rings FTW.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    deuxhero's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fl

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    No elfs, dwarfs orcs ect? Good job.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    No elfs, dwarfs orcs ect? Good job.
    Ehh, this is a bit loaded. Some groups want to have their dwarves and orcs. Hell some people even want to have elves for some ungodly reason. The trick is to not make them exactly like everyone else has made them. And be reasonable and believable with them.

    If you're dwarves and elves hate each other, ok a bit bland. Tell me why they hate each other, and make it a good reason. If it's a good enough reason the blatant cliches aren't as bad.

  21. - Top - End - #21

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadrian_Emrys View Post
    No. That's rational. Railroading would have been if they couldn't kill the npcs, and if they somehow could, another would appear to fill the same role.
    You mean like backup mayors?

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Flickerdart's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by root9125 View Post
    Yeah, like this, but is it railroading to have the "etc etc etc" *actually happen*, or is it necessary to have my NPCs (their new "allies") *enforce* the terms of the bargain?
    Their new allies don't have to enforce anything. Your players just angered a swarm of Paladins, and they're being given a chance to survive, for a price. If they don't take it, don't force them to. Don't make the Paladins unkillable, nor homing: the tracking and the chasing and the fighting is another chance for players to escape, albeit on their own terms. The difference here is one between "you're not following my plot so rocks fall Paladins kill you" and "you've made your choice, these are the consequences, deal with them as you will".
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by root9125 View Post
    As a new DM, I can't really tell when people *aren't* enjoying the adventure. So what are some common mistakes people make that bore the players?

    Thanks!
    Ask your players. It varies from person to person.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Pika...'s Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by root9125 View Post
    As a new DM, I can't really tell when people *aren't* enjoying the adventure. So what are some common mistakes people make that bore the players?

    Thanks!
    Assuming everyone likes the same thing.


    I swear, if I have to sit through another hack-and-slash module I will scream. Then again, I know most people I game with are quite glad to do modules, so I appreciate it when a DM asks the players their thoughts and trices to balance a bit for everyone.
    I just want someone to hold me and tell me they love me. Especially when I am sad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Skami Pilno View Post
    The man who is dominated by fear of death is already dead.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Railroading
    DMPCs
    Riddles

    You may note a common theme with these and most complaints thus far: the DM takes over and doesn't let PCs do what they want. Bad consequences for bad actions are fine, but forcing along a path, being the PC that does things for the real PCs, giving challenges with predetermined solutions, etc. are annoying.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-10-15 at 08:52 PM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
    My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
    TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
    Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
    Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hadrian_Emrys's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Freeland, WA

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    DMPCs aren't always a bad idea. If the players all want to play meleers, having a skillbot/healer DMPC following them around and being useful is a grand idea.
    Avatar by Zarah
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    Toho has retroactive powers of awesome. He makes things that he hasn't done, and have already happened, better by his existence
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganurath View Post
    If anything, the term should be What Would Toho Do?
    Of course, in all situations the answer is Be A Badass.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Broken Damaged Worthless

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadrian_Emrys View Post
    DMPCs aren't always a bad idea. If the players all want to play meleers, having a skillbot/healer DMPC following them around and being useful is a grand idea.
    And sometimes (mostly my group for some reason), the players really LIKE an NPC the DM has made, and so asks them to tag along and be with the party as party members. Really, I've had players drag NPCs along and force me to flesh them out into full characters who chill with the party and be party members. Strange, but true.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadrian_Emrys View Post
    DMPCs aren't always a bad idea. If the players all want to play meleers, having a skillbot/healer DMPC following them around and being useful is a grand idea.
    These are NPCs and yes they are great. Technically DMPCs are NPCs too, but they act more like PCs. Or super PCs since the DM can do w/e he wants. Hence what I said before about the DM taking over.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-10-15 at 09:02 PM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
    My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
    TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
    Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
    Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The great state of denial

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Middle of combat rules changes that help the enemy.
    Middle of combat rules changes that counteract other middle of combat rules changes to help out the enemy.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do people hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    Screwing with their characters without their consent. Changing their alignment, forcing them to take levels in this and that, causing paladins to fall, hacking off their limbs when regeneration is not easily available, raping them, et cetera.
    Remember, the plot is the DMs, but the characters belong to the players. You can set up the world however you like to make your cool adventure happen, but always, always, always remember that the players decisions are final on what their character does.

    If it's something particularly stupid, they can and will face consequences in the world for their choice, but it's still their choice. If you take this aspect away from them, it *will* ruin the game.
    Back from a lengthy vacation from Giantitp. I've been dabbling with 3d printer technology and game design, PM if you're curious.

    "World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization."

    New: Tyndmyr has a game shop!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •