3.5 Cr vs Lvl adjustment.

[assassin8]

I need some help here. My DM does not understand how Cr vs lvl adjustment works. I tried to explain it but I might as well slam my head into a wall. Does any one have an easy way to demonstrate that a Cr is not something to be added to a character but a lvl adjustment should.

He things that adding a cr 2 to a PC is just like adding a lvl adjustment 2. Ive tried to say that cr 2 = a group of 4 second level characters should lose 20% against them...

PLease help

[Kylarra]

Honestly since most CRs are less than their LA equivalent, if he insists on reading things that way, just take a race with a level adjustment.

[assassin8]

Its more the fact that he needs to know what is wrong with what he is doing and not so much taking the broken-ness

[lsfreak]

CR is ONLY for monsters. LA is ONLY for PC's. They are two different systems. Their similarity is that they are both ****ed up beyond being anything more than an extremely rough guideline (though LA generally isn't quite as bad).

[sadi]

Are you talking about a pc monster not using racial hit dice? Or do you mean a bugbear is also a level 4 fighter? If it's the latter that's the way it works, if its the former expect him to have no problems with encounters while everyone else struggles.

[jiriku]

They measure different things.

CR measures how deadly a monster is when encountered in a single battle. It measures powers that help the monster kill PCs and survive attacks.

LA measures how powerful and flexible a race is when used as an adventuring character over many sessions. It measures killing and surviving stuff too, but places less weight on those things. Importantly, it also measures powers that allow the creature to overcome obstacles and bypass encounters.

There are many examples of this. Vampires, for example, can summon weak creatures and turn to mist. These add little to its CR compared to features like energy drain and immunities. But imagine a PC who can summon unlimited hordes of expendable minions, and use his mist form to bypass locked doors, pits, rivers, and other obstacles. Such a character is dramatically more powerful in a campaign, which is why the vampire template's LA is higher than it's CR adjustment.

[Kylarra]

Well in that case

this:

CR is ONLY for monsters. LA is ONLY for PC's. They are two different systems. Their similarity is that they are both ****ed up beyond being anything more than an extremely rough guideline (though LA generally isn't quite as bad).

[assassin8]

He created a "lycanthrope template" that is a cr 2 and wants to have characters use this. I have tried to explain what a cr 2 means, but he said that it is the same thing as just uping his ECL. Im at a lose for the easy way to tell him, no ecl is HD+lvl adjustment. cr is for encounters... lvl adjustment is for players.

[Kylarra]

He created a "lycanthrope template" that is a cr 2 and wants to have characters use this. I have tried to explain what a cr 2 means, but he said that it is the same thing as just uping his ECL. Im at a lose for the easy way to tell him, no ecl is HD+lvl adjustment. cr is for encounters... lvl adjustment is for players.

That sounds like you're just having a terminology argument, but not one that's really critical to gameplay since it only applies to a template he's trying to give you guys.

Just explain that what he really means is that it's an LA+2 template as far as players are concerned.

[Frog Dragon]

Slam him in the head with the MM

Well seriously. Just take the book and show the required passages. Read them. And just point out what they mean. Should work. Or have you tried this already?

[kamikasei]

Er, point him at the rules for both CR and LA/ECL?

LA are "dead levels" used to offset powerful abilities not adequately represented by the character's HD (racial or class). It's for players.

CR is a rating of how tough a fight a creature is for the party, specifically, the average level of a four-person party that could expect to defeat four creatures of that CR over the course of a day without dying. It's for monsters/NPCs/antagonists.

LA is a price players pay for certain abilities, CR is a measure of the threat of a monster. There's not really any simpler way than that to put it.

Perhaps suggest he come here himself to explain his confusion? And point out that certain templates (e.g. lich, vampire) list separate and different increases to CR and LA?

[assassin8]

tried, he then goes off that LA and cr measure different things "when applied to a character". I really qwish I could remember his exact words but the jist is " a cr fights as a higher level character but still needs xp based on their class level but gains xp based on class+cr" and "LA raises the xp needed to go up a level as well as lowers the amount of xp a character gains when killing monsters equal to what their party dictates"

[kamikasei]

I suggest you get him to come here, then. There's not really any point in you providing us with half-remembered versions of his position, and our providing you with responses to those to relay back to him.

I would ask him where CR and XP are related anywhere in the rules (other than, of course, the XP you get for defeating a creature of a given CR).

[oxybe]

CR is a challenge rating. it's how difficult the creature is supposed to be as opposed to party of 4 PCs

LA is level adjustment. it adds to the character's effective character level to make up for gaining various abilities (this is in addition to racial Hit dice and class hit dice).
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let's use the case study of Billy the Bugbear Beguiler 1

as a Bugbear, Billy has 3 Racial HD (humanoid) and a Level adjustment of 1. added to this, is his 1 Beguiler level. Billy is effectively a Level 5 character. but has 4 Hit dice (3 humanoid, 1 Beguiler).

Bugbears, however, are a Challenge Rating 2 and adding the level of beguiler makes him a CR 3 enemy (as per DMG, adding a PC level to a monster adds about 1 to the CR for each PC level).

this means that even though he's a level 5 character, he should pose a decent threat to 4 level 3 PCs.
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everyone understood? no? too bad. get off my lawn!

[assassin8]

IM really liking the idea of smacking him in the head with the monsters manual.

[Kylarra]

CR is a challenge rating. it's how difficult the creature is supposed to be as opposed to party of 4 PCs

LA is level adjustment. it adds to the character's effective character level to make up for gaining various abilities (this is in addition to racial Hit dice and class hit dice).
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let's use the case study of Billy the Bugbear Beguiler 1

as a Bugbear, Billy has 3 Racial HD (humanoid) and a Level adjustment of 1. added to this, is his 1 Beguiler level. Billy is effectively a Level 5 character. but has 4 Hit dice (3 humanoid, 1 Beguiler).

Bugbears, however, are a Challenge Rating 2 and adding the level of beguiler makes him a CR 3 enemy (as per DMG, adding a PC level to a monster adds about 1 to the CR for each PC level).

this means that even though he's a level 5 character, he should pose a decent threat to 4 level 3 PCs.
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everyone understood? no? too bad. get off my lawn!

To be pedantic, billy the bugbear (monster) gets 2 beguiler levels for his +1 cr since it's a nonassociated class level.

[sofawall]

So make it Barbarian. You keep alliteration.

[Stegyre]

I think the sage addressed this very issue and explained the difference at some length. If I can find the citation, I'll post the link. I would expect that would be the most likely to convince your DM (or nothing will).

EDIT: Here. Open up the v3.5 Main D&D FAQ.

Page 2, second column has a good, if brief, discussion of the distinction between class level, character level, ECL, EL, and CR.

Page 96, first column, contains the discussion I was thinking of: an explanation of the difference between ECL and CR.

Honestly, if this doesn't answer the question for your DM, I think the situation's hopeless.

[Sliver]

this means that even though he's a level 5 character, he should pose a decent threat to 4 level 3 PCs.

No, he will force them to concume about 20% of their resources. Hardly a threat, and the fact that it's 4 against one isn't helping Billy..

CR is ONLY for monsters. LA is ONLY for PC's. They are two different systems. Their similarity is that they are both ****ed up beyond being anything more than an extremely rough guideline (though LA generally isn't quite as bad).

While I agree with most of it, LA is quite bad. It makes most things just not worth it. For casters its staring you at the face, laughting. For mundane classes, it would be better if you exchange LA for RHD, cuz really, having nothing for a few levels, balances what exactly? a few cool things they get from a monster race? RHD will do just fine.
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CR is used to tell you how much the party should get XP for the encounter. But a PCs CR doesn't count there, it is the monster's CR against the party's ECL. Show him the XP calculator in the d20srd site. Just show him the thread, if he doesn't want to register just let him type in his arguments if he still isn't convinced, and let the forum giants rip him apart.

[oxybe]

note i said "should".

the CR system itself is borked in various ways:
-the action economy of 4pcs VS 1npc being tilted VERY much towards the PCs
-the actual strength of the monsters in any CR bracket varying wildly making it inaccurate at best
-the linear fighter/quadratic wizard dichotomy makes it hard to judge how difficult a monster will be since party makeup could make it a cakewalk or a TPK
-among others

i'm just telling the assassin how the default assumption of the game works.

[Zincorium]

Rules that your DM refuses to read/understand effectively don't exist. But it's a sign the game may be screwed up in other ways if one of the basic concepts of the game (challenge rating) isn't recognized.

How the frell are you even getting xp if he doesn't know what CR is for? Is he just making it up on the spot, based on how generous he's feeling? That's one way to do it, but it's hardly a consolation when you only win a difficult combat through a lucky crit and he gives you around a 10th of what you've have normally gotten.

[ericgrau]

PCs have magic items, higher ability scores and class levels that let them do more with monster special abilities than monsters can. A CR 4 monster with a bunch of magic items and better ability scores is no longer CR 4.

[Myrmex]

PCs have magic items, higher ability scores and class levels that let them do more with monster special abilities than monsters can. A CR 4 monster with a bunch of magic items and better ability scores is no longer CR 4.

Depends on if its a party of druids or monks or what have you. CR is party dependent.

[Sliver]

Depends on if its a party of druids or monks or what have you. CR is party dependent.

No. That would be logical. Thats not the way we roll here.

[Rizban]

I know it's a bit old, but I just had this discussion with a newer DM and had to set him straight. The best "official" answer I've seen is in the MM p311 in the Level Adjustment section.

Level adjustment is not the same thing as an adjustment to a creature’s Challenge Rating because of some special qualities it possesses. Challenge Rating reflects how difficult an opponent is to fight in a limited number of encounters. Level adjustment shows how powerful a creature is as a player character or cohort in campaign play. For instance, a drow receives a +1 adjustment to its Challenge Rating to account for its special abilities, indicating that it’s tougher in a fight than its Hit Dice would suggest, but its level adjustment is +2 to balance its abilities over long-term play.

[Temotei]

I know it's a bit old, but I just had this discussion with a newer DM and had to set him straight. The best "official" answer I've seen is in the MM p311 in the Level Adjustment section.

Start a new thread.