The problem with the Experienced player

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

ok, I'm curious to see how many people out there run into any problems or irritating quirks when playing with a group of experienced players. dont' get me wrong, i prefer to play with people who know the game as rules are a pain in the toosh to explain over and over again, but who misses stuff about being a new player, stuff you cant get back now that you're more experienced at the game?

For example: a problem I sometimes when playing with a group that's been around the mountain dew bottle more than a few times is lack of suspence. in order for the players to not figure out what the horrifying monster is I/ or the DM have to get VERY loose on a description or the players figure it out and the big reveal goes out the window. The Characters may still be played appropriatly but the level of excitement amoung the players isnt there.

How many of you miss your early days of DND when a bugbear was new and exciting, and what do you miss most?

[Paulus]

As a completely new player in a group of players twice my age who have been playing for as long, a general lack of enthusiasm- to the point where my own almost always seems overkill.

As well as class familiarity, they all know the classes and how they work out as well as everything that goes with it, whereas it takes a few minutes to look up how Dispel magic greater works exactly. Makes me feel like I'm taking up huge amounts of time.

Plus we don't really play very often so I have no idea what their play styles are yet really. Still, that being said, we are just about to fight some vampires, the first actual combat I will have ever experienced. I am so completely absolutely burning with anticipation and can not wait for it to go down, I plan to punch a vampire in the face!!

YYEEAAAAAAHHHH!!!!

[Kesnit]

For example: a problem I sometimes when playing with a group that's been around the mountain dew bottle more than a few times is lack of suspence. in order for the players to not figure out what the horrifying monster is I/ or the DM have to get VERY loose on a description or the players figure it out and the big reveal goes out the window. The Characters may still be played appropriatly but the level of excitement amoung the players isnt there.

There was a player like that in a group I used to be in. When I did a stint as DM, I refluffed monsters as childhood toys or things. The stats were straight from the MM, but when I described them, I described them like the toy. (Orcs were Green Army Men. Ooze was Jell-o. Mimics appeared as comfy pillows. My Fighter-Blackguard-Thrall of Orcus mini-boss was dressed as Betty Crocker.)

[Raewyn]

I plan to punch a vampire in the face!!

Well, I guess he... *puts sunglasses on* bit the dust.

YYEEAAAAAAHHHH!!!!

David Caruso (or Jim Carey's impression of him) was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the white text.

[Dr_Emperor]

I plan to punch a vampire in the face!![/I]

YYEEAAAAAAHHHH!!!!

I miss this, I also hate the little voice in my head saying thats a horrible plan, "arrows are better so you don't get level drained on the return punch"

Also throwing the occasional leveled monster, the occasional monster with a different description, and and the occasional homebrew monster keeps even experienced players on there toes.

[Nero24200]

The only real problem I have with experienced players is that sometimes they think they know the game better than they do.

This usally results in them stating some rules (such as a spell effect) very matter-of-factly when they are actually wrong, and just point-blank refuse to accept otherwise. It also results in them assuming their opinion is automatically correct (for instance, the player could beleive class/feat/spell XY or Z is broken...even if they havn't actually read the full rules for it or only witnessesed it once or twice IG).

[Katana_Geldar]

Playing as a new player with experienced players with a new system is rather interesting, given they keep going on about how it used to be.

Good thing is, none of us are completely confident with it yet, not even the DM is as he has to check our powercards so he's sure how things work.

[JonestheSpy]

Yeah, overfamiliarity the metagaming can be a problem, on both sides of the screen.

New/morphed creatures and that kind of thing are always helpful, but I think it really comes down to stroytelling ability. If players are into it, and are in character enough to take things seriously, it doesn't matter so much if they are so familair with the rules. A real sense of danger helps - none of this confidence that they'll only (or mostly) meet level-appropriate foes they have a btter-than-even chance of beating. That's one of the reasons I like my games fairly low-power.

Imagine being in that long, pitch black tunnel under the mountain trying to find the relic or just get out the other side, when the party hears the echo of a farway door being bashed in and they know the trolls are coming - if everyone isn't on the edge of their seat something's wrong, even if they players do have the stats on trolls memorized.

[averagejoe]

For example: a problem I sometimes when playing with a group that's been around the mountain dew bottle more than a few times is lack of suspence. in order for the players to not figure out what the horrifying monster is I/ or the DM have to get VERY loose on a description or the players figure it out and the big reveal goes out the window. The Characters may still be played appropriatly but the level of excitement amoung the players isnt there.

I tend to see this sort of thing more as an opportunity for DM creativity. If they're not buying the story because of their experience, maybe you need to adjust your assumptions as far as what a story should be like.

Experienced players don't tend to be a huge problem. The main thing they can do is bully younger players and tell people what they "should" do, but players of any experience level can ruin things by being unreasonable.

[Eldariel]

I've never had any trouble with experienced players. I've only had trouble with problem players. New or experienced, if the player isn't interested in roleplaying, it's going to generate trouble outside a like-minded group. An experienced player can cause problems in different ways, but the root cause is always one that would be a problem regardless of their experience level.

In my experience, more experienced players have generally had the time and the social pressure to grow out of the game-disrupting habits like specifically trying to break the game or not participating in the roleplaying parts of the game or killing first, talking later (though sometimes it might be in-character and sometimes there may be in-character reasons; mostly it's just disruptive) or some such. But this is just in my experience.

[Inhuman Bot]

Being one of the less experianced with D&D 3.5 players in my group, I haven't had this problem too much.

I also mix it up for the more experianced players. Like making a level 3 charcter create a thermonuclear blast.

[Yukitsu]

I apparantly started experienced, as I'd read all the books, and several boards before I even rolled up my first character. I also lurked the game group IRL for a year before starting, making sure I understood the group dynamic and relative power level. Incidently, my first character survived a few total party kills.

[sofawall]

Well, I guess he... *puts sunglasses on* bit the dust.

YYEEAAAAAAHHHH!!!!

David Caruso (or Jim Carey's impression of him) was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the white text.

The Who popped into my head.

[Akal Saris]

As one earlier poster mentioned, a lot of the more experienced players are convinced that they know all the rules and will argue things to death instead of cracking open the book or accept the DM's judgment.

It's sometimes worst when you have experienced players and a somewhat inexperienced DM, and some of the PCs always argue against the rulings.

It's also harder to really excite the experienced players sometimes, because they've done most variations of quests a hundred times already. But it's very satisfying when you do pull it off.

[Raewyn]

The Who popped into my head.

The Who wrote the theme song for CSI Miami.

Also, this is hi-larious. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJSqkwyL1Zo

[Dark Herald]

You see a Dragon

What color is it?

Roll a Knowledge: Nature check

No, what color is it?

You don't know

I'm not blind, I can see what color the Dragon is!

No, you can't really tell

Just Tell Me What Color It Is!


Then he realized he was metagaming. OotS 207 really went to his head.

[Harperfan7]

The only advice I have is that with experienced players is to lull them into thinking that they know exactly whats going on (and making it seem like you're not sure if they do or not) and then pull out some completely homebrewed monster/character/whatever.

For instance, the players are tracking down a spy/murderer/whatever who stabs people with a weapon enchanted with a different element (like flaming, frost, etc) with every kill. They're all pretty sure it's a doppleganger because what any witnesses say contradict each other and it never leaves the same tracks twice, so when they finally confront the guy they have true seeing cast (and whatever else anti-doppleganger/stealth spells). Turns out that doppleganger is actually a floating crystal shooting out black lightning and surrounded by several flying swords made of magma who absorbs ALL arcane magic cast at it (anything that targets it or any lasting effect that it moves into - like cloudkill).

Make sure to use a ton of illusion/transmutation spells and do a lot of homebrewing. Just make sure that they never know what to expect. That'll keep the game alive.

[Dixieboy]

Well, I guess he... *puts sunglasses on* bit the dust.

YYEEAAAAAAHHHH!!!!

David Caruso (or Jim Carey's impression of him) was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the white text.

... I don't get it.

[SilverSheriff]

... I don't get it.

You need more cowbell CSI: Miami.

Dave Caruso's formula for CIS: Miami is:

Other Person: This lady was run over by a bus.
Dave: I guess you could say...the bus...caught her.
*Intro sequence plays the Who's "Won't get fooled again"*
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

[Sir_Elderberry]

In my gaming group, we have one person who has played D&D for eight years, me (three years), and four or five total newbies. We felt that they were relying too much on us for guidance, and we're actually planning to switch systems (to M&M) to try and level the playing field a bit as far as how experienced everyone is. Plus, we think the more-familiar setting of superheroes will ease them into RPing a bit.

[Korivan]

In our group I'm the experienced player. Which is why I'm usually the DM. This is good and bad. On the good side, the experienced player is going to be able to help keep the party alive, going, on track. In my case, I use my characters to help me show them how to make good builds (I do alot of building with players as a DM too).

What happened tonight is a good example of what can be bad. Though the problem mostly was the fact that despite walking this guy through 4 seperate characters and explaining and re-explaining how the game works, he still has problems getting things like BAB, AC, Feats, Skill points, Actions, Spells (always plays a spell caster), and so on. Anyways, the end result was that I'd kill 3/4ths of the enemies or more, perform all the RP for the story plot, he was the cleric and I still tended to heal more then him. All in all, I outpaced him by a good mile.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

This usally results in them stating some rules (such as a spell effect) very matter-of-factly when they are actually wrong, and just point-blank refuse to accept otherwise. It also results in them assuming their opinion is automatically correct (for instance, the player could beleive class/feat/spell XY or Z is broken...even if they havn't actually read the full rules for it or only witnessesed it once or twice IG).

Admittedly this is anecdotal, but, I will say that it is probably more a function of the person him or herself than the fact that said person is experienced:

One of the big arguments I had with an old gaming group was whether or not Supernatural abilities were magical. I said, matter-of-factly that they were, while both the DM and another "experienced" player said that they weren't. We go back and forth a little before I mention that I can double-check it really fast. Somehow, that comment got lost in the noise, so about 30 minutes later, I try to calmly point to the back of the PHB to show the DM that, (Su) are, indeed magical. Can't say whether or not I was entirely calm, but I remember the DM kind of giving an "Oh, okay. Well, sh**, I wish this would have came up earlier" kind of expression, but the other guy was certainly had an air of "BUT I'M RIGHT!"

As for my current DND 3.5 group, I am considered to be one of the more knowledgeable people on things not Incarnum. I generally make it a habit to double-check what I say, just in case my memory is off, and there have been a few times where my matter of fact response was wrong.

[taltamir]

do a creature translation table... take a creature, make up a new name and a completely different look. Same stats and mechanical use, but is the flowing living foam a golem or a gelly? Is the humanoid chicken a goblin, orc or an owlbear?
well, you will find out if you roll well on knowledge, or hit it with enough things to figure out.

That being said, not EVERY enemy must be an unknown.

[bosssmiley]

...a problem I sometimes when playing with a group that's been around the mountain dew bottle more than a few times is lack of suspense. in order for the players to not figure out what the horrifying monster is I/ or the DM have to get VERY loose on a description or the players figure it out and the big reveal goes out the window. The Characters may still be played appropriately but the level of excitement among the players isn't there.

That's what re-skinning, homebrewing and the thrumming brainhive of the interweb are good for. The players can't *yawn*meta-game monsters that were created within the last couple of day.

How many of you miss your early days of DND when a bugbear was new and exciting, and what do you miss most?

Miss it? I'm still there after ~20 years of play.

[karnokoto]

What happened tonight is a good example of what can be bad. Though the problem mostly was the fact that despite walking this guy through 4 seperate characters and explaining and re-explaining how the game works, he still has problems getting things like BAB, AC, Feats, Skill points, Actions, Spells (always plays a spell caster), and so on. Anyways, the end result was that I'd kill 3/4ths of the enemies or more, perform all the RP for the story plot, he was the cleric and I still tended to heal more then him. All in all, I outpaced him by a good mile.

I don't pretend to know what happens at the table or how any of your gaming buds act, but I remember the same thing happening to me when I was the new player.
It feels really cool to feel like you're an important member of the party, so maybe if hes not doing his 'job' (like healing, for example) you could kind of suggest to him that he should do it. Like "Hey, our rogue is looking a little banged up. Why don't you heal him while I help the wizard up?" Or something similar.
Another thing is new guys tend to be quieter- they're trying to figure out how to act in a new setting. He may not have the confidence to speak up about his character's thoughts or actions. Make an effort to include him, basically- but don't put him on the spot.



Anyway, I'm still the newbie ;) I'll come up with (what I think is) an AWESOME idea for a campaign...only to be told it would never work. Or we've done that already. Its depressing.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The only advice I have is that with experienced players is to lull them into thinking that they know exactly whats going on (and making it seem like you're not sure if they do or not) and then pull out some completely homebrewed monster/character/whatever.

Nice, man.

Just Tell Me What Color It Is!

You use the standard colored dragons? Passé. Try a planar or gemstone dragon.

[potatocubed]

That being said, not EVERY enemy must be an unknown.

Sometimes an orc is just an orc.

That said, I do try to arrange things that even if the monsters are just orcs, they're led by an orc with character levels, or a half-fiend orc, or an ogre military genius, or a cadre of orc ninjas, or something otherwise out of the ordinary that they have to stretch a bit to compensate for.

[Requiem Star]

Sometimes a little humility is in order.

I had a white wolf werewolf game where the players were experianced... and cocky. They didn't have fear. I had to go outside the books for things that weren't familiar. For instance, the group believed they could pop law enforcement officers with impunity. So I invented section 7, a group of mortal human super soldiers that were 'blessed' by the weaver. They didn't use silver. They used cutting edge rail guns. They used stealth helicopters. They used snipers. And curiously enough the umbra was filled with vicious unique pattern spiders that protected the soldiers. They weren't banes or black spirals or anything that they had ever encountered before. And I admit I made my player's lives a living hell because some of them had played for so long that the idea of losing was lost on them. They finally regrouped and managed to destroy a squad that was set on sanitizing their cairn and after that there was no more jokes about 'popping cops'.

[Zaq]

On the flip side of this, I've had GMs try to overcompensate about this. Such as telling my character, who has spent his entire life reading stories about adventures, is a high-ranking member of the Paragnostic Assembly, and literally has the universe whispering secrets in his ear, that he doesn't know much about something he made a Knowledge check with a result of 40+ on because it was homebrew. I'm still a little bitter about that one.

I try to be good about not using information my characters don't have. I've intentionally tried to Sneak Attack things immune to crits before because my character didn't have the requisite Knowledge checks to know that this thing (of a type usually vulnerable, so not a construct or anything) was immune. But then, I spend a lot more time than I should reading D&D books, so there's not a lot that can surprise me. This isn't something I do intentionally. I just like reading about monsters and stuff.

[Mike_G]

We run into this sometimes, since we have a bunch of old 1st ed grognards with two and a half decades of playing. Most of the players are good about it, but you gte the occaisional "Watch out for the touch attack, guys" comment that the character couldn't possibly know about.

We have one player who will ask thinsg like "Is that a Specter or a Wraith?"

I have had to point out that he was playing a Barbarian with no ranks in any knowledge and an 8 Int. "Dude. On a good day, you can just about remember to lift you loincloth before taking a piss. You have no idea of the capabilities of the thing in front of you, other than 'Og see wall behind bad man!'"