[3.5] Need Help Making a Monk

[karnokoto]

I've recently heard that monks suck, which is unfortunate because I've always thought they were pretty awesome. But, have never played one.

So, suppose monks didn't suck D:

I'm not ironbound to the base monk class. I just want a very zen unarmed melee monster that moves like a ninja and can, like, punch people to the moon.
Was also thinking of going for the tattooed monk variant. Tattoos are cool.
Assume access to anything but gestalt stuff.

If it matters, I'm going to be playing in a party with another monk (I'm not sure how shes building hers, though), a swordsage, rogue and possibly another fighter or a second rogue- the last guy hasn't decided yet. I think the entire party has decided to go no casters. Not sure if I want to stick to that, but if at all possible I'd like to stay away from the finger wigglers.

I've never done this kinda thing (we're generally not optimizers) but I would LOVE some help trying to figure it out. Thanks!

[raitalin]

In before unarmed swordsage.

[mostlyharmful]

Cleric with Superior unarmed strike, a ton of self buffs and Knowledge devotion can be fun times too, grab a monks belt and bracers of armour, maybe even a couple levels of Barb for fun and go to town. If the flavour of 'Monk' is 'spiritual asskicker' then Cleric's a neat bunch of stuff and you're not even suboptimal.

[Starbuck_II]

I've recently heard that monks suck, which is unfortunate because I've always thought they were pretty awesome. But, have never played one.

So, suppose monks didn't suck D:

I'm not ironbound to the base monk class. I just want a very zen unarmed melee monster that moves like a ninja and can, like, punch people to the moon.
Was also thinking of going for the tattooed monk variant. Tattoos are cool.
Assume access to anything but gestalt stuff.

If it matters, I'm going to be playing in a party with another monk (I'm not sure how shes building hers, though), a swordsage, rogue and possibly another fighter or a second rogue- the last guy hasn't decided yet. I think the entire party has decided to go no casters. Not sure if I want to stick to that, but if at all possible I'd like to stay away from the finger wigglers.

I've never done this kinda thing (we're generally not optimizers) but I would LOVE some help trying to figure it out. Thanks!

Monks don't suck, but are like Jack of all Trades: master at none.
They don't hit stuff good (3/4th bab)
Don't deal good damage (except base damage)
Don't have good AC (unless by lower Str lowering damage since you can't afford Good Wis and Good Str focys).
Have decent skills, but not best. (only 4+ Int skills)
Have weird non-fitting together abilities (I can fall by a wall, I can drink poison, and talk to plants!).

That said you could try the Glaicomo Monk idea (use Use Magic Device to buff up with spells).

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi Karnokoto,

some questions first:
- what levels will you be playing -and what will be the stats? (rolled or point buy for 28? points?)
- will the group have access to buying magic items of their choice over the course of the campaign? Can you choose items at the beginning of the campaign (in case you start at a higher level)?
- how optimised will your DM accept your characters to be? Your monk could easily end up doing 24d8 base damage per hit and have 20 attacks while looking like a kind of old zen master - but is this something that the DM will be prepared for?

First idea: Since there is a swordsage in your group and another monk, and everyone is pretty set for melee/non-caster-like combat stuff, you and your fellow players could sit down with the Tome of Battle and everyone focuses on a different combat style.
Note: all classes can have easy access to ToB maneuvers by just using feats and the cheap items in the ToB.

- Giacomo

PS: an unarmed swordsage is not a good idea I guess since the DM will need to houserule that one-sentence-option in the ToB so much to make it worthwhile. For a start, an unarmed swordsage does not even have the improved unarmed strike feat. It gets worse from there.

[Teron]

I'm not ironbound to the base monk class. I just want a very zen unarmed melee monster that moves like a ninja and can, like, punch people to the moon.

Then you want the unarmed swordsage variant. Shadow Hand provides mobility and stealth, Diamond Mind gives you "mind over matter" defenses and Setting Sun lets you fling people around.

In before unarmed swordsage.

In after smartass, with exactly what the OP asked for.

[Foryn Gilnith]

PS: an unarmed swordsage is not a good idea I guess since the DM will need to houserule that one-sentence-option in the ToB so much to make it worthwhile. For a start, an unarmed swordsage does not even have the improved unarmed strike feat. It gets worse from there.

Houserule? The Arcane Swordsage is something you need to houserule. Unarmed Swordsage just trades AP (light) for the monk's unarmed progression - and IMO that clearly includes Improved Unarmed Strike. I'd take away something else from the swordsage, though, besides armor; as monk unarmed damage isn't lost by wearing armor, and swordsage could just get a mithral shirt. I'd lower skill points as well for the unarmed swordsage, to the monk's 4/level.

[Teron]

Houserule? The Arcane Swordsage is something you need to houserule. Unarmed Swordsage just trades AP (light) for the monk's unarmed progression - and IMO that clearly includes Improved Unarmed Strike. I'd take away something else from the swordsage, though, besides armor; as monk unarmed damage isn't lost by wearing armor, and swordsage could just get a mithral shirt. I'd lower skill points as well for the unarmed swordsage, to the monk's 4/level.

I really don't think that's necessary, as the monk-like unarmed damage just serves to make up, barely, for the weapon you'd be using otherwise -- it isn't actually an improvement over a normal swordsage using a weapon, just one trying to fight unarmed without the variant.

[Kylarra]

The other oft cited option Monk2/PsyWar 18 with Tashalatora feat.

[Faleldir]

PS: a Monk is not a good idea I guess since the DM will need to houserule that weapon chart in the PHB so much to make it worthwhile. For a start, an unarmed strike is a simple weapon, and Monks are not proficient with simple weapons. It gets worse from there.

[Talya]

Unarmed Swordsage is pretty well fleshed out already, the only houseruling it needs (which was already stated as RAI by the writers of TOB) is allowing the swordsage Wis-to-AC to work while wearing no armor.

That said, I'm not entirely opposed to the monk class as a dip. In particular, Monk 2, Unarmed Swordsage X, Shadow Sun Ninja is lots of fun. Optimal? Well, no...but still far better than any melee in core. You can't really go wrong with TOB melee.

(Furthermore, Vow of Poverty actually works with that build, as TOB maneuvers Swordsage/SSN gives access to will allow you to duplicate most magical items you'd want that VOP doesn't give you already. Whether or not it's optimal depends on your campaign...i find most fights are "tank and spank" affairs where everyone just stands up close and clobbers things anyway...but at least you have access to most toys you'd buy on magic items through martial disciplines just the same.)

[Godskook]

That said, I'm not entirely opposed to the monk class as a dip. In particular, Monk 2, Unarmed Swordsage X, Shadow Sun Ninja is lots of fun. Optimal? Well, no...but still far better than any melee in core. You can't really go wrong with TOB melee.

In addition to this, there's a couple of monk alterations that'll help this out, depending on your DM's allowance of unarmed swordsage. Primarily, spending a feat on kung-fu genius gives you int based monk abilities(but not swordsage) giving you the ability to prioritize int better than a single class swordsage. There's also a plethora of ACFs that'll allow you to basically choose the best two feats to go with your build(sleeping tiger makes for an excellent choice if you're headed to Mo9 after your monk dip).

[Demons_eye]

A few things you might want to increase unarmed damage. There is likely more but these are the most common.

The feats
Superior unarmed Strike (As said above +4 level of unarmed damage)
Improved Natural Attack (+1 size category)

Items
Monks Belt (+5 levels unarmed Damage
Monks Tattoo (+4 levels unarmed Damage)

Class
Fist of the forest (+2 dice of unarmed Damage)

Belt Tattoo and SuS don't stack by RAW but I bet a DM would wave that. Tattoo is in Magic of Fearun and both it and the belt upgrade more then just unarmed damage.

[Flickerdart]

Monk 2/PsyWar 18 with Tashalatora is definitely an option. So is Monk 6/Psionic Fist 10/Elocater 4 with feats like Up the Walls and such. Elocater isn't necessary or very good, but it fits the "moving like a ninja" flavour. You could pick up Slayer instead, for full BAB and Favored Enemy. Psionics are your friend!

[Gametime]

PS: an unarmed swordsage is not a good idea I guess since the DM will need to houserule that one-sentence-option in the ToB so much to make it worthwhile. For a start, an unarmed swordsage does not even have the improved unarmed strike feat. It gets worse from there.

Actually, since the Improved Unarmed Strike feat is included under the "Unarmed Strike" section of the Monk's abilities, an unarmed swordsage WOULD get that feat for free at first level (since it's a part of the "unarmed strike progression" of the monk).

Even if the DM thought that was overpowered for whatever reason, a swordsage who had to take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike would still be better than a straight monk in a lot of ways.

[Ravens_cry]

Monk and Rogue mix well, because sneak attacks emulate, in my view, the idea of a martial artists precision damage.

[Arakune]

Monk and Rogue mix well, because sneak attacks emulate, in my view, the idea of a martial artists precision damage.

Now that's something I never thought before

It may even reduce MAD a little with the sneak attacks damage and a high(ish) base dice.

[Draz74]

Now that's something I never thought before

It may even reduce MAD a little with the sneak attacks damage and a high(ish) base dice.

Unfortunately, the best Rogue/Monk multiclass combo is Rogue 19/Monk 1.

[Zaydos]

Throw in Ascetic Rogue and Superior Unarmed Strike and you're doing some decent damage.

[Paulus]

I plan to make a Monk/Factotum mix, add Kung Fu Genius... can you say Int to AC twice? Superior Unarmed Strike and monk belt, plus some Factotum spells like say... Wraithstirke, Greater Mighty Wallop, Tensers's Transformation.

Would be a bit MAD with INT, Dex, and Str being the focus. but hey, can't argue with a 15+ reflex save and evasion can you?

[bison] this is delicious! [/bison]

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Would be a bit MAD with INT, Dex, and Str being the focus. but hey, can't argue with a 15+ reflex save and evasion can you?

I think it's called Magic Missile.

[Cespenar]

I'm not sure about the optimization level in this, but Monk 1/Sorcerer X/Enlightened Fist 3 with Ascetic Mage is (perhaps) an option. According to some rather fuzzy rules, he can pull things like three Empowered Shocking Grasps in one round... around level 9, I think.

[mostlyharmful]

I think it's called Magic Missile.

I think it's called finger of death.

[Paulus]

I think it's called Magic Missile.

I think it's called finger of death.

Actually the name is magic items.

[Godskook]

Unfortunately, the best Rogue/Monk multiclass combo is Rogue 19/Monk 1.

I don't know, I'd think Rogue 18/Monk 2 would work out a little better.

[Draz74]

I don't know, I'd think Rogue 18/Monk 2 would work out a little better.

Meh, maybe. Lose 1d6 sneak attack, a Rogue Special Ability, and four skill points. Gain 1 HP and Combat Reflexes, and I guess +1 to all saves. For a non-tank, I can't say that's an awesome trade.

Usually the biggest appeal of Monk 2 is Evasion, which is meaningless to a standard Rogue.

[karnokoto]

This is all great guys, thank you :)
A lot of it sounds like moon language to me, I'm extremely new to this whole optimizing thing, so I'm going to have to look all of this stuff up in their respective books to try and make sense of it all.
So far unarmed swordsage is seeming like a good idea, especially because I'm not sure how long this campaign will last. Attaining epic levels is nigh unheard of in our group.


Sir Giacomo-
Thanks a lot!
I am really not sure what level we'll be starting at, but I'm fairly sure its somewhere between 3-5.

The DM himself is something of a closet munchkin and has a bad habit of letting his PCs have whatever they like right off the bat, so if I'm going to abuse that this one time I think I could do it without much trouble.
Of course I'll run everything by him but I'd like to have a more concrete build of the character before I do.

I'm also pretty sure hes going to have us roll our stats, hes never done point buy so far so safe to assume he'll continue the trend.

If its not too much to ask, in what books does all this stuff reside?

[Flickerdart]

A lot of this stuff is SRD, available online. Everything there is most likely Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide or Expanded Psionics Handbook, with alternate class features and such from Unearthed Arcana and a lot of nonsense from Deities & Demigods and Epic Level Handbook. Swordsage and Superior Unarmed Strike are Tome of Battle. Factotum is Dungeonscape. Ascetic Rogue is, I believe, Complete Adventurer.

[sofawall]

- how optimised will your DM accept your characters to be? Your monk could easily end up doing 24d8 base damage per hit and have 20 attacks while looking like a kind of old zen master - but is this something that the DM will be prepared for?

I count [3+2(flurry)+1(Haste)+3(TWF)]*2(Kensai Shenanigans) for 18 attacks. Where are the other two?

[Flickerdart]

I count [3+2(flurry)+1(Haste)+3(TWF)]*2(Kensai Shenanigans) for 18 attacks. Where are the other two?

Scroll of CL16 Tenser's makes that 19, if it helps, but that's an awful idea. The full 20 if Kensai shenanigans can use it.

However, adding in Braid Blade nonsense I'm sure you could go beyond that easily, not even counting Incarnum.