Proper Tools For Dungeoneering

[Thajocoth]

Hey, I'm DMing a D&D game, and usually can keep everything I need in my head. Maybe a note on paper saying "Add razorvine" or "Use these enemies"... But so far it's all been fairly linear and tutorial (as the players are all new to this edition). Now I want to give them a nice sized dungeon to raid. I already know basically what I want to do... But for something like this I need to write down a concrete layout. One with floors, and different paths, and different notes for my reference about different rooms... Give them a full-scale dungeon crawl experience. Best app I have for that though is Photoshop or Paint which are not good for this. I need something better... Like, with a grid that I can just add walls & notes to, basically. Is there anything like that? Or do I need to take -2 for using improvised tools?

[Gralamin]

Hey, I'm DMing a D&D game, and usually can keep everything I need in my head. Maybe a note on paper saying "Add razorvine" or "Use these enemies"... But so far it's all been fairly linear and tutorial (as the players are all new to this edition). Now I want to give them a nice sized dungeon to raid. I already know basically what I want to do... But for something like this I need to write down a concrete layout. One with floors, and different paths, and different notes for my reference about different rooms... Give them a full-scale dungeon crawl experience. Best app I have for that though is Photoshop or Paint which are not good for this. I need something better... Like, with a grid that I can just add walls & notes to, basically. Is there anything like that? Or do I need to take -2 for using improvised tools?

I've used Maptools to do this multiple times.
As an Alternative, I understand (For 4e) Masterplan's map making abilities are alright, and its a great all in one program.

[root9125]

There are two excellent tools that your deity gave you, and one that Bic, Inc. gave you.

Seriously, unless you want to spend hours learning your new tool, grab your preferred writing implement and some loose leaf and diagram that there dungeon. Starting with 2 nearly-randomly-drawn lines on the page helps me keep from giving it a super-linear "you see another door in front of you" feel.

But others may have computer-tools for you.

[Thajocoth]

I've used Maptools to do this multiple times.
As an Alternative, I understand (For 4e) Masterplan's map making abilities are alright, and its a great all in one program.

Thanks a lot! Masterplan is setting itself up right now. I'm gonna give it a try.

There are two excellent tools that your deity of choice gave you, and one that Bic, Inc. gave you.

Seriously, unless you want to spend hours learning your tool of choice, grab your writing implement and some loose leaf and diagram that there dungeon. Starting with 2 nearly-randomly-drawn lines on the page helps me keep from giving it a super-linear "you see another door in front of you" feel.

But others may have computer-tools for you.

If I tried that, I'd wind up with rooms that are two different distances away depending on what path you take, and a sore arm. (I'm a horrible judge of distance and scale.)

EDIT: New question: Any tips on setting it up so the best tactic for the players isn't to open the door to a room and simply wait in the hallway using the door as a choke point?

[Thane of Fife]

If I tried that, I'd wind up with rooms that are two different distances away depending on what path you take, and a sore arm. (I'm a horrible judge of distance and scale.)

How is that possible, barring some form of non-Euclidean paper? A dozen sheets of graph paper and a pencil are classic tools for a reason.

As for how to keep them from using doorways:

Use intelligent monsters. The enemies can lure the PCs into the room by hiding, then strike, or even circle around to attack from a room they've passed through. And what's wrong with them using doorways as choke points anyways?

[Thajocoth]

And what's wrong with them using doorways as choke points anyways?

Nothing, but the same tactic every battle would be likely to get boring.

[Thane of Fife]

Nothing, but the same tactic every battle would be likely to get boring.

Then ensure that it isn't always a good tactic. One big enemy, for example, means that the players want to get into the room to maximize people in combat. Similarly, zig-zag passageways mean that people not immediately in the doorway can't really participate in the combat. Enemies with ranged attacks force the PCs to leave their positions.

[Solaris]

Look for a map of an actual cave, then build a complex off that. Alternatively, scrounge up a map of a real-world castle and base the dungeon off that instead. The castle can be in ruins - after all, it's not manned by a garrison.

[Tyndmyr]

Graphing paper + pencil, IMO.

Ive dabbled with all sorts of tools, but in the end, I always end up just scribbling out notes in terribly boring business meetings. Nothing spurs creativity like true boredom.

[valadil]

Honestly you don't even need a map. Make a list of challenges and the loot the guard. You can improvise passageways pretty easily. Just use whatever challenge seems appropriate as you draw up the map.

If however you decide that you really want to do all the passageways or if you have a lot of detailed rooms, you might want to try a tool I'm working on. It's a text based app that makes anbgand/nethack style maps. It's still in alpha, but if you're interested I can link to the code.

[Thajocoth]

Masterplan's grid is very easy to use and everything, but has one big flaw... It deals with tiles, not walls... So if I want to have two rooms right next to one another, I can't see where the wall is between them.

I've attempted using MapTools for this in the past, but it's a lot more than what I need...

Basically a grid that I can add walls to, add doors to the walls, and some symbols to the squares to denote things. It's all just for my reference as the players traverse the dungeon.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Nothing spurs creativity like true boredom.

Quoted for the Honest Truth.

[Draz74]

I've attempted using MapTools for this in the past, but it's a lot more than what I need...

True, but you very much don't have to use all of it. You really can ignore Macros and just use MapTool for ... mapping.

Watch this tutorial for a demo of how quick basic map-drawing can be.

[Thajocoth]

Honestly you don't even need a map. Make a list of challenges and the loot the guard. You can improvise passageways pretty easily. Just use whatever challenge seems appropriate as you draw up the map.

If I do this, the place is going to be VERY linear...

Then again, now that I think about it, every dungeon I've played in has been pretty linear with the exception of the Keep on the Shadowfell module which was still mostly linear...

I've already got a list of mobs to use for encounter generating near the beginning (duergar), a boss for the end (the villain's son, a young black dragon), and another list for the middle (necromancers & zombies). If I make a list of traps and a list of potential clues regarding the villain, I could probably actually do it that way.

[ericgrau]

Graph paper and pencil work best for a rough layout. Look at or imagine real life objects and estimate their lengths whenever you need a sense of scale. If you want to pretty up the dungeon then you find some software. Text OTOH is easier to type.

IMO ask yourself what are the monsters' goals are (usually plot related), what are their base needs (food, money, etc.), and what are their resources (monetary and otherwise). Then ask what they would construct or take over to serve their interests. In the case of taking over an old dungeon, what were the previous owner's goals & etc.? You might fudge reality a bit for the sake of cool, but even then provide a plausible explanation. Give the PCs the idea that this is an actual world they are getting involved in, one that continues on with or without them. /IMO

[DeathQuaker]

Beyond drawing it on graph paper, you might consider checking out stuff like the the GameMastery campaign workbook which could be helpful in allowing you to design and organize your campaigns.

For other "high tech" solutions, there's Campaign Cartographer. If you take the time to learn to use it (which is the main issue with Campaign Cartographer), you can make very nice, very detailed maps that will allow you to add DM notes to your maps, as well as create "DM only" layers/sheets that can reveal the secrets to you (while you can make "player" versions of the maps if you want to use them as handouts). If you have the resources, you can even print out the maps you make in 1-inch-square format to have an instant battlegrid with your dungeon layout on it. It is a very fiddly program though, and doing all that does take time and patience. But it is there as a resource.

MapTools is probably easier and free, but I can't make heads or tails of MapTools, while Campaign Cartographer I can work with well enough at least as far as designing maps goes. But maybe the fact that I paid for CC pushes me to learn to use it.

[Thajocoth]

IMO ask yourself what are the monsters' goals are (usually plot related), what are their base needs (food, money, etc.), and what are their resources (monetary and otherwise). Then ask what they would construct or take over to serve their interests. In the case of taking over an old dungeon, what were the previous owner's goals & etc.? You might fudge reality a bit for the sake of cool, but even then provide a plausible explanation. Give the PCs the idea that this is an actual world they are getting involved in, one that continues on with or without them. /IMO

Oh, I've already got all this down. Xeviria is a black dragon that worships Vecna and runs an organized crime in the city, keeping as much as possible a secret. Her goal is to take over the city, and she's been hiding deep under a tavern run by duergar. The players learned all this and more from questioning somebody they defeated. They've also seen some of their slain foes rise back up as zombies. So I've got Duergar at the beginning who'll act like it's an ordinary tavern with a secret door in the tavern the PCs could find leading below. The first level below should have a couple exits to the city's sewer system. The doors to the sewers are barricaded, but for some odd reason barricaded from the sewer side. Good checks would reveal they used to be barricaded from this side. There would also be a few necromancers and various zombies. I'm thinking of putting some new brickwork covering a chute big enough for a dragon to fly through that leads to each level, but the long route having more zombies and such. Being a black dragon, I've added some acid-spraying traps and a flooding room (Things she would have no reason to avoid.) At the end is her son, a Young Black Dragon (They already fought her other three children, Black Dragon Wyrmlings), as well as a glyph of madness. Interrogating the young black dragon could reveal that Xeviria had some wizards cast something on her to make her "look like one of you mammals", then she left him in charge of the mob/cult and hoard for a while and left. (Her actual plan at this point is to get the city's king (who's a bachelor at the moment) to marry her, then have him killed.)

None of that's on an actual map... That's just the general idea. I've got a straight-up list of 8 encounters, but want to add more stuff between to make it more interesting and keep these encounters from being too similar. Level 3 group, if they fight every battle, they should be level 5 by the end.
* (lvl 3) Group of Duergar in bar, if they fight them
* (lvl 3) Group of Duergar upstairs, if they go up there and fight them (Not necessary, but gives them a nice place to extended rest when they need to.)
* (lvl 3) Necromancer + basic zombies + acid sprayers
* (lvl 4) Necromancer + mostly zombie minions with the necromancer and one other zombie having minion-protecting abilities
* (lvl 3) Necromancer with tougher sword-wielding zombies
* (lvl 4) Necromancer with Kruthik zombies
* (lvl 5) Big solo zombie in a room that's flooding 1/2 foot per round
* (lvl 6.5) Young Black Dragon + Glyph of Madness
[And, obviously, magic items throughout and a treasure hoard at the end]

None of those repeats any units from one room to the next or any units they've seen before. Levels are 1-5 with the exception of the Glyph of Madness (lvl 6) and the last Necromancer (lvl 7).

Half of the fights are "Necromancer + zombies" though. Might get too repetitive, so I'm thinking any time they find a way to skip a room, make that room be one of the "Necromancer + zombies" rooms. The place is more vertical than horizontal, being in the middle of a city, with one level of it coinciding with the sewer level.

EDIT: I could also give the players 2 paths that lead to the same place, and only if they check out both paths would they see all the encounters. I kinda took every Duergar & Zombie unit from the Monster Builder that was within the level range that weren't repeats of one another with different names. (I tend to do stupid stuff like that...)

Also, the rooms themselves need to be more than an empty box. I've gotta look through some terrain features and stuff... Maybe I'll add, like, power circles and blood rock and stuff... But I've found terrain that's active seems to make the most memorable of encounters.

EDIT2: I'm thinking one of the battles could have, like, water flowing across the middle with platforms of some sort floating on it. (close enough to keep all jumps at the 1-square range) I'd roll each round on it's initiative to see what row flows how far.

[valadil]

If I do this, the place is going to be VERY linear...

It doesn't have to be. Add a fork in the road. Add a locked door. Make sure you save some stuff for whatever's on the other side/behind the door. Scenery is good too, especially if it can be investigated. Maybe a glow in the dark stalactite. Let the players spend 30 minutes harvesting glowy fungus from the ceiling if they want to.

The reason I advocate mapping dungeons on the fly is because it's not all that different than if you planned it ahead of time. Most often you draw some passages, then a room of monsters. Maybe there's a door or two (since they had to guard something). That door should be trapped or the rogue will feel worthless. Etc. When people run their dungeon they copy the map over for the players. But there probably wasn't a long editing process going into that dungeon. It's just a matter of if you improvised it in front of your players or not. If you really need to ensure your dungeon isn't linear, just list some forks/splits/rivers/portals/crevasses of unkown depth in your challenges and deploy them as needed.