Food for thought

[TelemontTanthul]

Why is it most villains are wizards? Why don't we see fighters trying to take over the world through regular conquest.

If you are a DM, and DID NOT use a wizard as the main villain (or hero, for evil campaigns), tell us your story, and how you managed to make the fighter a threat to the current world order.

Have fun, and be cool.

[Keld Denar]

I like clerics as BBEGs. Nothing says lovin like fanatical devotion and divine powah backing you up!

Also, evil droods make sufficiently nasty BBEGs, considering that most of the time, the PCs will have to venture into their domain to confront them and a druid in their natural setting (pun intended) is a scary thing indeed!

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Fighters can't take over the world by themselves, so they have to lead groups... but Cha and Int are usually dump stats, which hurts your ability to lead...

It would work with Orcs based on WAAAGHonomics, but not in human society where you have to have brains to lead.

[AslanCross]

My first campaign had a Half-fiend ogre mage warlock/crusader. The wizard on his side was a rather unsympathetic drow who served as his advisor.

The BBEG in my current campaign (RHOD) is

Spoiler

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a cleric of Tiamat.

The fighter could do it---the Warlord is a common villain archetype. Just that it takes more than the ability to wave a big sword around to craft elaborate schemes. It takes a decent amount of cunning for a big guy with a big sword to rise above the rabble of other big guys with big swords.

I believe one example of this would be Obould Manyarrows from Forgotten Realms. Smarter than your average orc.

[Xyk]

My main villain is currently a bard. He uses his bardic abilities to seduce and distract the PCs while they end up doing all his dirty work for him. He does use magic though.

[TelemontTanthul]

Characters using magic is fine. The only constraint on this topic is "No Wizard Classes".

I never thought of a bard as a villain type of person, interesting.

And yes, it is true that fighters are somewhat at a disadvantage, mostly because of their dump stats being Cha and Int, but also because they are limited by their physical abilities, and the abilities of any magical trinkets they may have acquired.

But, let us continue the debate/story telling, it has been interesting thus far.

[herrhauptmann]

If the fighter is a BBEG, or a character in a story, he could theoretically have whatever items/stats you want to give him. Especially if he's the culmination of a long campaign that ends at high levels, then you can freely give him whatever items you want without ruining the game in later levels anyway.

Besides, he's a BBEG, he doesn't need the Leadership feat to have a loyal army or fanatically devoted inner circle (wizards, clerics, other fighters etc). Again, look at Obould Manyarrows, whether his stats (FRCS) include the leadership feat, he doesn't have the stats for his cohorts/followers to be a large number of mid-high level creatures, AND near infinite hordes of orcs.
Plot gave him armies when he was first written.
More plot gave him the opportunity to call himself the Chosen of Gruumsh, or Gruumsh on Faerun; and thus, more followers, cohorts, and hordes.
I don't think his stats have been published post-hunters blade trilogy, but I can guarantee he doesn't have the 300 charisma to call his armies followers.

[Toliudar]

I don't think I've ever used a wizard as my BBEG. Sorcerers are much easier to keep track of, and easier for the PC's to get to know. So far, in my campaigns, my villains have been:

A half-fiend cleric of Tharizdun
A blue dragon
A death slaad
A goblin sorcerer
A cabal of three dwarves - rogue, cleric, fighter

[Jergmo]

The BBEG's in my campaign are diverse.

A pair of dragons, brother and sister, who are trying to destroy human civilizations from the inside out in hopes that they can bring dragonkind back to their former glory,

A cleric who is the high priest of a widespread cult of the God of Death and Decay,

An Efreeti that is trying to take over via an economic path, building a progressively more complicated web in order to pit various nations against each other in a second continental war while simultaneously crippling the economy of part of the other side of the planet through some rather illogical-seeming but effective methods,

A human fighter that is trying to stage a rebellion against the monarchy of the main nation involved, to overthrow the government in favor of a democracy because he feels the queen doesn't have the nation's best interests in mind because the military isn't as strong as it could be and they've as of yet been unable to resolve certain military threats (repelled, sure, but not eliminated), figuring that it's worked so well for their orcish neighbors that the strongest member of the tribe is the leader, (Well, he's not Evil, but still - he's a pretty big part of the opposition in the campaign)

A frost giant king, who, along with the help of white dragons, have enslaved a large island inhabited by humans and are trying to invade the mainland,

A two-headed Yuan-ti high priestess who has a prophecy surrounding her from the orcs that migrated to the area, but they currently see as bushwah because it's a bit vague and they don't have an understanding of the Yuan-Ti,

The list goes on, I'll spare y'all. Of course, I've got a couple of wizards as well. I don't believe in having a single BBEG. That would be too closed-ended!

Characters using magic is fine. The only constraint on this topic is "No Wizard Classes".

I never thought of a bard as a villain type of person, interesting.

And yes, it is true that fighters are somewhat at a disadvantage, mostly because of their dump stats being Cha and Int, but also because they are limited by their physical abilities, and the abilities of any magical trinkets they may have acquired.

But, let us continue the debate/story telling, it has been interesting thus far.

Well, there's the Dirgesinger prestige class in Libris Mortis. They're the emo band singers of D&D, only they actually manage to bring suffering and misery to others.

[darkzucchini]

I think that there are two different issues here: the archvillain and BBEG.

The archvillian could be a fighter for a number of reasons. They may be born into their role, perhaps a powerful barbarian chief dies and his son seizes power and invades the neighboring lands. Perhaps a powerful fighter seeks to take over power from within a system, such a general enacting a military coup. Or a vengeful warrior may seek to inflict "justice" upon the good guys for some past wrong, he doesn't need to confront the PCs directly, he may just kill loved ones and important NPCs. Generally, no archvillian can take over the world with out a substantial sect of followers and it is these followers that make the archvillian powerful.

The BBEG on the other hand is someone that PCs will come into personal conflict with, and, even at the lower level, the fighter BBEG is pretty screwed when the wizard flies around him outside of his reach and pokes him with Magic Missiles, or the cleric Hold Persons him and on the first tern. Magic items generally make up for this difference. Give your fighter some items that up his will save, grant him Freedom of Movement, maybe homebrew an item that lets out a 50' radius Dispell Magic every round. Without magic items, in a heavy (or even moderate magic) world, the fighter BBEG is pretty screwed.

[Eldariel]

I think that there are two different issues here: the archvillain and BBEG.

The archvillian could be a fighter for a number of reasons. They may be born into their role, perhaps a powerful barbarian chief dies and his son seizes power and invades the neighboring lands. Perhaps a powerful fighter seeks to take over power from within a system, such a general enacting a military coup. Or a vengeful warrior may seek to inflict "justice" upon the good guys for some past wrong, he doesn't need to confront the PCs directly, he may just kill loved ones and important NPCs. Generally, no archvillian can take over the world with out a substantial sect of followers and it is these followers that make the archvillian powerful.

The BBEG on the other hand is someone that PCs will come into personal conflict with, and, even at the lower level, the fighter BBEG is pretty screwed when the wizard flies around him outside of his reach and pokes him with Magic Missiles, or the cleric Hold Persons him and on the first tern. Magic items generally make up for this difference. Give your fighter some items that up his will save, grant him Freedom of Movement, maybe homebrew an item that lets out a 50' radius Dispell Magic every round. Without magic items, in a heavy (or even moderate magic) world, the fighter BBEG is pretty screwed.

Even with Magic Items, fact is that Magic Item powers can be suppressed (or god forbid, Disjunctioned). Anyone relying on Magic Items to shine is going to lose to a caster of any real power (Artificers are an exception here due to their equipment being so potent that they can actually replicate everything a real caster does), simply because they can't shut down caster's magic while the caster can easily shut down their magic thus making for a hugely uneven battlefield, unless their magic somehow makes them undetectable...which is quite hard with a hundred auras around you.

Complete Warrior suggests a "dark knight" BBEG, but really, the only way to go about that is to toss the "knight"-part to all hell and pump him full of magical effects. Of course, a "knight"-type mover BBEG can easily work; all he needs is strong enough friends.

[jmbrown]

D&D is a game with powerful magic so it's only natural that wizards have access to the greatest powers. A fighter could, in theory, lead entire nations to their downfall but he'd do so (in a traditional D&D world like Greyhawk) through the use of magic or with the aid of magical allies.

In 3E rules, a standard melee character lacks the literal skill, charisma, and intelligence to be the master mind behind a world shattering plot. A more powerful creature including even the weakest outsider could easily overtake him.

[Myrmex]

For a game with characters that will never get above 9th level, a 14th level fighter-type is easily high enough level to say "stfu" to the party casters.

[Eldariel]

For a game with characters that will never get above 9th level, a 14th level fighter-type is easily high enough level to say "stfu" to the party casters.

I'd say a 9th level caster, even without much work, has quite a decent shot at killing a 14th level Fighter. Now, on the lower levels it gets more exciting.

[Myrmex]

I'd say a 9th level caster, even without much work, has quite a decent shot at killing a 14th level Fighter. Now, on the lower levels it gets more exciting.

That's not what I posted, though.

[Eldariel]

That's not what I posted, though.

True. But when there's very real chance the person you're talking to could slay you, you don't tell him to "stfu" lest you're seeking to achieve a shorter lifespan. You only do this if you need someone to free you of this mortal coil.

[Myrmex]

True. But when there's very real chance the person you're talking to could slay you, you don't tell him to "stfu" lest you're seeking to achieve a shorter lifespan. You only do this if you need someone to free you of this mortal coil.

Well, what spells is the party caster going to have available to kill a 14th level character in one turn?

Anything that relies on a save or touch attack will simply be to unreliable, stuff like Fireball is in a banned school, and Maw of Chaos is too high a level.

The lack of things like Shapechange, Timestop, Foresight, and Mind Blank also means the caster is getting caught with his pants down.

And typically you tell a party caster to stfu by dimension dooring next to him and full attacking.

[Harperfan7]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Sarevok, with his high Int & Cha, magic resisting armor, and cheesy DEATHBLOW!!! abilities.

Back in 2nd Ed when Cha = social skills and Int = knowledge, it might have worked without bending any rules.

There are ways a fighter can combat wizards, but it takes a lot of money (and the market to get what he wants, and no rogues trying to swindle him...sigh), but yeah, I really can't see one being the BBEG.

UNLESS the fighter is supported by a high priest of a religion which glorifies fighters (and puts the fighter above him/herself).

[Jergmo]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Sarevok, with his high Int & Cha, magic resisting armor, and cheesy DEATHBLOW!!! abilities.

Back in 2nd Ed when Cha = social skills and Int = knowledge, it might have worked without bending any rules.

There are ways a fighter can combat wizards, but it takes a lot of money (and the market to get what he wants, and no rogues trying to swindle him...sigh), but yeah, I really can't see one being the BBEG.

UNLESS the fighter is supported by a high priest of a religion which glorifies fighters (and puts the fighter above him/herself).

Sarevok doesn't have a single attribute that's below 15, though, so he isn't exactly a normal character.

[Myrmex]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Sarevok, with his high Int & Cha, magic resisting armor, and cheesy DEATHBLOW!!! abilities.

Back in 2nd Ed when Cha = social skills and Int = knowledge, it might have worked without bending any rules.

There are ways a fighter can combat wizards, but it takes a lot of money (and the market to get what he wants, and no rogues trying to swindle him...sigh), but yeah, I really can't see one being the BBEG.

UNLESS the fighter is supported by a high priest of a religion which glorifies fighters (and puts the fighter above him/herself).

As long as the players are ECL 15 or lower, your BBEG can be primarily a melee guy. It's ninth level spells that really break things.

Unless you allow really retarded cheese in your game, BBEGs without full casting can still mess up the party plenty good. The biggest problems are things like Celerity, Foresight, Dire Tortoises, and Mindblank. Anything that gives the party de facto first strike, really.

Also, it's not going to be JUST the CR = party ECL +5 that is going to run into the party, but his pet dragon, wizard vizier, and a bunch of minions that are putting up low level buff effects and turning the battlefield into difficult terrain.

[PhoenixRivers]

3rd level spells are where things start getting bad.

By ECL 15, without caster support, and a lot of extras, a BBEG will fall flat on his/her face, barring DM fiat.

[Eldariel]

Well, what spells is the party caster going to have available to kill a 14th level character in one turn?

Anything that relies on a save or touch attack will simply be to unreliable, stuff like Fireball is in a banned school, and Maw of Chaos is too high a level.

The lack of things like Shapechange, Timestop, Foresight, and Mind Blank also means the caster is getting caught with his pants down.

*shrug* Of course you won't kill one in one turn, but you can win; you Dispel all his magic equipment with e.g. Chain Dispel Magic first and then Enervate/Orb him dead or Ray of X him or Dominate him or something.

And typically you tell a party caster to stfu by dimension dooring next to him and full attacking.

...yeah, if they didn't prepare Anticipate Teleport this morning (3rd level spell) and you are a Shadow Pouncer or something to take actions after Dimension Door, I guess.

[JadedDM]

Why is it most villains are wizards? Why don't we see fighters trying to take over the world through regular conquest.

Part of it is that wizards (high-level ones) are usually seen as more powerful, and thus a more credible threat in a game.

I think at least a little of it might stem back from the old days, when D&D was more inspired by Conan and such, though.

[PhoenixRivers]

And typically you tell a party caster to stfu by dimension dooring next to him and full attacking.

Typically, Dimension Door prevents you from taking any other action until your next turn. If your transporter wizard went immediately before you, it's possible.

Unless there are readied actions/contingencies.
Or a delayed action by the party.
Or Anticipate Teleportation.
Or Antimagic Field.
Or several other effects that effectively preclude this tactic.

But other than that, yeah.

[Myrmex]

Typically, Dimension Door prevents you from taking any other action until your next turn. If your transporter wizard went immediately before you, it's possible.

Unless there are readied actions/contingencies.
Or a delayed action by the party.
Or Anticipate Teleportation.
Or Antimagic Field.
Or several other effects that effectively preclude this tactic.

But other than that, yeah.

The wizard auto-loses all its buffs to rhd3/psion 5 in an encounter prior to the showdown. Or the whole party, if you're feeling mean, and use Chain Power.

This is especially hilarious when the wizard & cleric are both abusing persistent spell & metamagic reducers, as they will tend to use up half their spell slots in buffs.

[edit]
Forgot to add:
shadow pounce ftw
and gloura: 7 CR for casting as a 7th level bard, unearthly grace, and +22 worth of ability scores.

[PhoenixRivers]

The wizard auto-loses all its buffs to rhd3/psion 5 in an encounter prior to the showdown. Or the whole party, if you're feeling mean, and use Chain Power.

This is especially hilarious when the wizard & cleric are both abusing persistent spell & metamagic reducers, as they will tend to use up half their spell slots in buffs.

[edit]
Forgot to add:
shadow pounce ftw
and gloura: 7 CR for casting as a 7th level bard, unearthly grace, and +22 worth of ability scores.

Ah, well, if the game you're playing is "nerf the players, regardless of their approach or tactic", then yes, in a carefully controlled environment, where the players are drained of their buff spells pre-fight, and the fighter has arcane support, then yes.

In those circumstances, a fighter can be a threat.

Only he's not the threat. The psion and the arcane support are. The fighter is just the guy that hits things, after the way has been made clear to do so.

This method that you suggest is also a form of railroading. For example? What if the wizard has a Celerity contingencied for when a spell is cast on him which could dispel a beneficial spell?

Then he uses that Celerity to Block LoE, for the duration of the action?
Then the party kills the RHD/Psion before its next action?

Nothing's Automatic.

EDIT: Heck, Ring of Spell-Battle and reflecting the spell back to the Psion.

[AslanCross]

For a game with characters that will never get above 9th level, a 14th level fighter-type is easily high enough level to say "stfu" to the party casters.

I've tried this. My BBEG's right hand was a warblade who was 5 levels higher than my party.

She was beaten to 5 HP from over 90 within 3 rounds. >_>

[PhoenixRivers]

I've tried this. My BBEG's right hand was a warblade who was 5 levels higher than my party.

She was beaten to 5 HP from over 90 within 3 rounds. >_>

Action economy. The BBEG has 1 round's worth of actions. The party has 4.

Adding in mooks (significantly weaker than the PC's, but able to effectively distract) and a lieutenant (character of power approaching a single PC, with abilities to complement the BBEG) helps mitigate this.

When you do so, don't think that the fighter alone is the threat, however.

When a wizard has a network of dominated and charmed victims, that's the wizard. Why? Because the wizard uses a class feature (casting) to directly control them.

When a wizard uses Leadership? That's not just the wizard. That's the use of generic, non-class features to garner that. A level 15 fighter, a level 15 wizard, and a level 15 commoner can all have the same followers by leadership. It's not a class indicator.

[AslanCross]

Action economy. The BBEG has 1 round's worth of actions. The party has 4.

Adding in mooks (significantly weaker than the PC's, but able to effectively distract) and a lieutenant (character of power approaching a single PC, with abilities to complement the BBEG) helps mitigate this.

When you do so, don't think that the fighter alone is the threat, however.

When a wizard has a network of dominated and charmed victims, that's the wizard. Why? Because the wizard uses a class feature (casting) to directly control them.

When a wizard uses Leadership? That's not just the wizard. That's the use of generic, non-class features to garner that. A level 15 fighter, a level 15 wizard, and a level 15 commoner can all have the same followers by leadership. It's not a class indicator.

That is exactly my point. I was responding to a post that said "a 14th level fighter type" is enough to smash a party of 9th level without qualifiers.

[PhoenixRivers]

Many people really underestimate a party with 5th level spells. That's the level where magic starts to get really interesting.