[3.5] Is Whirling Frenzy a bad Rage variant?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Simple question / opinion:
Is the Whirling Frenzy rage variant given in the Unearthed Arcana a bad idea, broken, underpowered, or what?

RAGE VARIANT: WHIRLING FRENZY

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A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.

Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a standard barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 20th level (when a standard barbarian gains mighty rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4.

A barbarian using this variant doesn't gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy.

A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).

There's a player character in the game I run who would - from their fluff - be better suited to this variant than the standard Rage. I'm just wondering whether it's been tried by anyone to any great extent, and what opinions people have of it.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It's fairly good.

[Tempest Fennac]

I personally like it a lot (I thinkj it looks better then standard Rage due to it not damaging your AC while giving an extra attack).

[Leon]

No its fine.
Its one of the two that i now wish i'd taken for my Partial barbarian as the core rage doesn't quite fit with the character

[Amphetryon]

It's a good option. It pairs especially well with the Lion Totem option from Complete Champion, to effectively provide a good number of attacks on a Charge while not hurting your defenses. Access to Evasion also opens up specific options for PrCs that would not otherwise be available to a Barbarian without a Rogue (or similar) dip.

The most obvious downside, I think, is the prohibition on using it with other forms of rage "or similar ability", which RAW seems to prohibit Frenzied Berzerker, long touted as one of the best options for a Barbarian.

[Sinfire Titan]

The most obvious downside, I think, is the prohibition on using it with other forms of rage "or similar ability", which RAW seems to prohibit Frenzied Berzerker, long touted as one of the best options for a Barbarian.

Optimized barbarians don't take FB for Frenzy, they take it for the Power Attack boost. Totem Ragers take FB for the Frenzy, seeing as they can't make efficient use of Power Attack (you know, Natural Weapons VS Two-Handing a greatsword).

[Zincorium]

It's a good option. It pairs especially well with the Lion Totem option from Complete Champion, to effectively provide a good number of attacks on a Charge while not hurting your defenses. Access to Evasion also opens up specific options for PrCs that would not otherwise be available to a Barbarian without a Rogue (or similar) dip.

The most obvious downside, I think, is the prohibition on using it with other forms of rage "or similar ability", which RAW seems to prohibit Frenzied Berzerker, long touted as one of the best options for a Barbarian.

Frenzied berserker is excellent for character optimization 'how can I do the most damage in one turn' builds.

It sucks in actual play. I've been there. Usually, the first level after someone starts frenzied berserker, you have to retreat after the first room of a dungeon because they killed a party member and then died after rage ended.

I don't mind people not being able to combine it with an extra attack.

[Fluffles]

Frenzied berserker is excellent for character optimization 'how can I do the most damage in one turn' builds.

It sucks in actual play. I've been there. Usually, the first level after someone starts frenzied berserker, you have to retreat after the first room of a dungeon because they killed a party member and then died after rage ended.

I don't mind people not being able to combine it with an extra attack.

FB is perfect for arena builds. Well, solo arenas that is.

[AslanCross]

Whirling Frenzy works great if you're looking at a TWF build, especially if you're throwing in some Tome of Battle. Pouncing Charge! (I also like how it adds to AC)

I think the variant that is considered subpar is the berserker strength variant from PHB2, since you mostly don't have control over it.

[Kaiyanwang]

The most obvious downside, I think, is the prohibition on using it with other forms of rage "or similar ability", which RAW seems to prohibit Frenzied Berzerker, long touted as one of the best options for a Barbarian.

This always surprised me. It seems to me completely arbitrary - why can't count as a rage?

It sucks in actual play. I've been there. Usually, the first level after someone starts frenzied berserker, you have to retreat after the first room of a dungeon because they killed a party member and then died after rage ended.

I conceeded to overcome this through a feat in Exalted Deeds that allow moments of mercy during rage (I made it count for frenzy too). Because we wanted a PC like Guts in Berserk

Before the feat, there were 2 dedicated player (CE fighter and Wall of F Sorcerer) that had the duty of keep at bay the guy and deaths happened anyway. Without cheese, FB is dangerous (but maybe fun in some campaign).

I think the variant that is considered subpar is the berserker strength variant from PHB2, since you mostly don't have control over it.

Agree. I prefer the Str/Con or Str/Dex rages, but the whirling is good too. The Berserk Strenght is simply quite dangerous, even if flavourful.

[Eldariel]

Frenzied Berserker only kills allies when misbuilt. As long as you take care, you should be able to construct it in a manner that doesn't relevantly threaten allies (such as a Merciful weapon, just plain obscene Will-save or similars)

But yeah, Whirling Frenzy is a fine Rage-variant; it trades the defensive benefits (save increases & HP increase) for more damage. It's the most offensive of the 3 Rages (though for some builds, the "can't use other Rages"-limitation is a deal breaker) and as a Barbarian, if you go Shock Trooper, killing people fast is a good idea. It's also got an AC boost which makes it ideal for low-level play; one of my arena-builds had no-shield no-magic AC of 21 on level 1 thanks to Whirling Frenzy.

Again, standard Rage is defensively better (especially later on when HP & saves subsume AC) and Ferocity has the Immediate Action-activation going on for it; in other words, it's faster. But Whirling Frenzy is the best offensively and as such, the one I find myself using overwhelmingly most (particularly with archers who really need the offensive help).

[Grumman]

Frenzied Berserker only kills allies when misbuilt. As long as you take care, you should be able to construct it in a manner that doesn't relevantly threaten allies (such as a Merciful weapon, just plain obscene Will-save or similars)

Something tells me that a frenzied Frenzied Berserker isn't going to be satisfied with a Nerf bat.

[Eldariel]

Something tells me that a frenzied Frenzied Berserker isn't going to be satisfied with a Nerf bat.

Just make sure he has nothing else in the immediate vicinity and isn't proficient with his natural attacks and you'll be fine. He'll smash everyone unconscious and nothing worse. Of course, this means he'll be completely useless vs. some opponents, but then you can Dispel the weapon or something.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

(Frenzied Berserker is not an option in my game.)

It seems that everyone appears to like this variant... which makes me suspicious.
Running through the maths, it appears that WF gives you more damage per round, and makes you 10-20% harder to hit. Compared with standard rage, which gives you more damage per round (but less than WF, as less attacks) and makes you easier to hit, with more HP per level (in the order of 16-30% more HP).

The character in question is TWF, mobile, AoO, battlefield-controller and flanking-monkey. She's not the damage dealer of the party - that'd be a race between the fighter, the paladin and the half-orc barbarian.

One last point - I'm not the player here, I'm the DM. I'm cautious about adding variants.
Is the enthusiasm for the damage dealing ability of Whirling Frenzy enough reason for me to bar it from my game, or am I over-reacting to your collected praise?

[Eldariel]

Here's the basic difference between the two:

Whirling Frenzy:
- Extra attack (at -2)
- +2 AC
- +2 Reflex-saves

Rage:
- 2xHD HP
- -2 AC
- +2 Fort-saves
- +2 Will-saves


For a TWFer, Whirling Frenzy isn't all good simply because one extra attack for a TWFer is far less than an extra attack for a two-hander. The -2 penalty, likewise, is bigger for TWFers since they already have a penalty to start with and have more attacks it applies to.

So no, for a TWFer it's definitely not broken. Two-hander can be pretty frightening a damage dealer with it, but trades the defensive abilities of a Barbarian there (also note that Whirling Frenzy doesn't last as long; the Con-bonus enables normal Rage to last longer), so I wouldn't say it's broken there either, but it's definitely not broken for a TWFer.


I honestly cannot see why you'd want to ban it.

[Myrmex]

Whirling Frenzy is best when combined with a way to get a full attack on a charge. Otherwise it's just good, not great. It's a step up from regular rage at lower levels, since a small amount of AC and an extra attack are significant, but at higher levels, it won't matter as much as +3*lvl HP and +2 will saves.

TWFing is tricky to make work, since you have to hope that whatever you are next to isn't going to either out-full attack you, or simply move away.

[Sinfire Titan]

(Frenzied Berserker is not an option in my game.)

It seems that everyone appears to like this variant... which makes me suspicious.
Running through the maths, it appears that WF gives you more damage per round, and makes you 10-20% harder to hit. Compared with standard rage, which gives you more damage per round (but less than WF, as less attacks) and makes you easier to hit, with more HP per level (in the order of 16-30% more HP).

The character in question is TWF, mobile, AoO, battlefield-controller and flanking-monkey. She's not the damage dealer of the party - that'd be a race between the fighter, the paladin and the half-orc barbarian.

One last point - I'm not the player here, I'm the DM. I'm cautious about adding variants.
Is the enthusiasm for the damage dealing ability of Whirling Frenzy enough reason for me to bar it from my game, or am I over-reacting to your collected praise?

Melee needs all the help it can get. What's 10-20% increase to AC compared to a single casting of Pyrotechnics, which is effectively auto-blindness to everyone within the area (and possibly not for your allies, if you know what you are doing)? That 20% increase to AC just became meaninglessly trivial, as now every enemy now has a 50% chance of missing on every attack, with no saving throw, for 1 round/CL and for 1d4+1 rounds after the duration ends.

Melee needs help (and FB is good help if used properly). Don't knock an idea down just because it only helps the weakest of characters.

[Starbuck_II]

Melee needs all the help it can get. What's 10-20% increase to AC compared to a single casting of Pyrotechnics, which is effectively auto-blindness to everyone within the area (and possibly not for your allies, if you know what you are doing)? That 20% increase to AC just became meaninglessly trivial, as now every enemy now has a 50% chance of missing on every attack, with no saving throw, for 1 round/CL and for 1d4+1 rounds after the duration ends.

Melee needs help (and FB is good help if used properly). Don't knock an idea down just because it only helps the weakest of characters.

True, but you need a fire.

[Vangor]

TWF and AoO will suffer for using Whirling Frenzy as the -2 to Attacks applies to far more attacks throughout the round. Of course, the variant plays perfectly in terms of adding to the character type of repetitious attacks and has the advantage of not needing a Full Attack to receive the additional attack which seems all the more reasonable for the character type. I would absolutely allow the Barbarian to use Whirling Frenzy, primarily because I still vastly prefer using ordinary Rage for my Desert Orc with SfD for +4 Will Saves; Will and Health has always been far more important to my survival than AC and Reflex.

[Oslecamo]

Melee needs all the help it can get. What's 10-20% increase to AC compared to a single casting of Pyrotechnics, which is effectively auto-blindness to everyone within the area (and possibly not for your allies, if you know what you are doing)? That 20% increase to AC just became meaninglessly trivial, as now every enemy now has a 50% chance of missing on every attack, with no saving throw, for 1 round/CL and for 1d4+1 rounds after the duration ends.

WTF? It lasts only 1d4+1 rounds!

Assuming they fail their will save and you bypass their SR.

Assuming they just didn't snipe your wizard as he aproached carrying a very seeable torch that's basicaly making him a walking target.

Assuming they're not outright immune to blindness.

Assuming they don't hide behind something.

That's a lot of assumptions for it to work.

EDIT:If you're talking about the smoke effect, it still demands you manage to get a fire source in the midle of the enemy, and they stand there dully while you position yourselfs.

[Myrmex]

Of course, the variant plays perfectly in terms of adding to the character type of repetitious attacks and has the advantage of not needing a Full Attack to receive the additional attack which seems all the more reasonable for the character type.

Oh wow, there's no "full attack" clause. I totally missed that. No wonder I've been so underwhelmed with the whirling variant.

[Cieyrin]

WTF? It lasts only 1d4+1 rounds!

Assuming they fail their will save and you bypass their SR.

Assuming they just didn't snipe your wizard as he aproached carrying a very seeable torch that's basicaly making him a walking target.

Assuming they're not outright immune to blindness.

Assuming they don't hide behind something.

That's a lot of assumptions for it to work.

EDIT:If you're talking about the smoke effect, it still demands you manage to get a fire source in the midle of the enemy, and they stand there dully while you position yourselfs.

You act like Mr. Wizard is alone and running in like some chump. You ready an action to pyrotechnics after having another party member throw their torch to where you want the smoke to go off. They're effectively blind in the smoke and possibly suffering Str and Dex penalties from smoke inhalation, which lasts while in the cloud (which lasts for 1 round/CL) and then 1d4+1 rounds after that as they get fresh air back into their lungs.

If they just want the fireworks, it's the same procedure, except you don't have to throw the torch, since the flash hits 120' around the source, unless you're trying to get somebody just out of range of that, in which case you throw the damn torch anyways.

[Myrmex]

You act like Mr. Wizard is alone and running in like some chump. You ready an action to pyrotechnics after having another party member throw their torch to where you want the smoke to go off. They're effectively blind in the smoke and possibly suffering Str and Dex penalties from smoke inhalation, which lasts while in the cloud (which lasts for 1 round/CL) and then 1d4+1 rounds after that as they get fresh air back into their lungs.

If they just want the fireworks, it's the same procedure, except you don't have to throw the torch, since the flash hits 120' around the source, unless you're trying to get somebody just out of range of that, in which case you throw the damn torch anyways.

A torch can be thrown up to 50 feet. With this tactic, you're blinding the whole party, aren't you?

[The Glyphstone]

A torch can be thrown up to 50 feet. With this tactic, you're blinding the whole party, aren't you?

Parties can be warned beforehand, and, say, have a readied action to close their eyes and look away from the flash. The monsters won't know you're going to do it, unless your DM is a jerk and has all enemies constantly walk around with free-readied actions to close their eyes if someone throws a torch at them. Not foolproof, but if you're using it as a pre-planned tactic, it doesn't endanger your party at all.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Of course, the variant plays perfectly in terms of adding to the character type of repetitious attacks and has the advantage of not needing a Full Attack to receive the additional attack which seems all the more reasonable for the character type.

Citation for this? Unless it's specified in UA, general "extra attack" stuff (Haste/etc.) require a full attack. Not-full-attack is the exception, not the rule.

[Eldariel]

It's much better to use it with e.g. Bullseye Lantern anyways.

EDIT: Let's stop derailing this thread, k?

[Myrmex]

Parties can be warned beforehand, and, say, have a readied action to close their eyes and look away from the flash. The monsters won't know you're going to do it, unless your DM is a jerk and has all enemies constantly walk around with free-readied actions to close their eyes if someone throws a torch at them. Not foolproof, but if you're using it as a pre-planned tactic, it doesn't endanger your party at all.

So the party gets a +2 circumstance bonus on the will save to avoid the flash. Still not very awesome, considering the save on that flash is likely to be near 20.

[lsfreak]

Citation for this? Unless it's specified in UA, general "extra attack" stuff (Haste/etc.) require a full attack. Not-full-attack is the exception, not the rule.

Do you have a source that unless specified, it requires a full attack? I've been casually looking for one but have been unable to find it. I know that most things specifically say that you need a full attack, but things like Whirling Frenzy and Raging Mongoose don't.

[Sinfire Titan]

WTF? It lasts only 1d4+1 rounds!

Assuming they fail their will save and you bypass their SR.

Assuming they just didn't snipe your wizard as he aproached carrying a very seeable torch that's basicaly making him a walking target.

Assuming they're not outright immune to blindness.

Assuming they don't hide behind something.

That's a lot of assumptions for it to work.

EDIT:If you're talking about the smoke effect, it still demands you manage to get a fire source in the midle of the enemy, and they stand there dully while you position yourselfs.

2 rounds minimum. 5 rounds maximum. Knowing that the average combat lasts 3-5 rounds, those 2 rounds are a massive advantage. And the Smoke effect has no save or SR. The save is against the Str/Dex penalty, not the blindness (the biggest debuff).


You assume a lot more than I do (that an ally throws a torch into the middle of a group of enemies). How many enemies are truly immune to Blindness? Only a handful, which is why spells like Glitterdust and Pyrotechnics are so powerful. Even True Dragons are not outright immune to the effect. At the lowest levels, such as 3rd when the spell becomes first available, how many things are immune?

A torch can be thrown up to 50 feet. With this tactic, you're blinding the whole party, aren't you?

You never use the Flash version. It offers a save, the Smoke doesn't. The smoke is also shapeable through Metamagic or a class feature (Recaster, Archmage). The Familiar you so conveniently have on hand can also just fly the torch over the enemy at double speed, giving you quite a range. Assuming it flies, of course.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

Key point "for some special reason". That generally covers everything. Ergo, specific exemption from full attack requirement is necessary.