Ninja/Rogue

[Thefurmonger]

hi all,

So I'm thinking of running a Kobald (With web enhancement) Ninja or Rogue or perhaps some of each.

The ACF for Rouge make me want to go that way but the Invis for a full round +3 nat att make Ninja look good.

Im thinking of eventually going into Confound the Bigfolk from Cwar I think.

will be LVL 5 to start with 36 Pt buy and 10k to spend, up to 5k on one item.

[RagnaroksChosen]

if you want rogue/ ninja at level 5

I would do 2 ninja/ 3 rogue.

I would take the kobold rogue acf.

Do a throwing type build
Point blank and rapid shot

Get dex as high as youc an go and try to get your str to 10ishs..

[Thefurmonger]

is there a feat for Ninja/Rogue?

I could swear there was one.

[Curmudgeon]

You could opt for Monk 2/Rogue X, with Ascetic Rogue boosting your unarmed damage to that of a Monk at the combined level. Both classes provide evasion, but you'll want to trade the Monk 2 evasion for Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil, page 21); this gives you 1 full round of invisibility every 3 rounds.

I'm pretty sure there isn't a Ninja+Rogue feat.

[Gnaeus]

Or Swordsage 2 Rogue x. Wisdom to AC in light armor is better than without armor. Cloak of deception is almost as good (in some cases better) than shadow step. Assassins stance is better than sudden strike. Better Hp. All martial weapons.

[Curmudgeon]

Assassins stance is better than sudden strike.

Why do you say that? Assassin's Stance provides just a fixed +2d6 sneak attack, and never gets better. Sudden Strike can go to 10d6, which is clearly better than 2d6.

All martial weapons.

The weapon is of little importance to a Rogue or Ninja. Most of their damage comes from sneak attack/sudden strike, and a weapon with a wider threat range is better than one with a bigger damage die, because Craven damage gets multiplied on a critical hit. Rogues get rapiers; Ninjas get kukris; that's good enough.

[Foryn Gilnith]

because Craven damage gets multiplied on a critical hit.

Oh, wow. Never noticed that. That's helpful.

[Curmudgeon]

Oh, wow. Never noticed that. That's helpful.

Oh, yeah; that's important. Only damage dice don't get multiplied. So Craven, Knowledge Devotion, and a bunch of other flat bonus damage can get multiplied on criticals.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Yeah, I noticed Knowledge Devotion/Power Attack/Collision. But Craven I always associated with sneak attack, which I always automatically filed under "not multiplied".

Spread the rules knowledge.

[sofawall]

Why do you say that? Assassin's Stance provides just a fixed +2d6 sneak attack, and never gets better. Sudden Strike can go to 10d6, which is clearly better than 2d6.

10d6 is clearly better than 2d6, yes.

10d6 is also clearly better than 10d4, but if the d6 was fire and the d4 force, I'd usually take the force. Sudden Strike, likewise, is weaker than sneak attack.

[Gnaeus]

Why do you say that? Assassin's Stance provides just a fixed +2d6 sneak attack, and never gets better. Sudden Strike can go to 10d6, which is clearly better than 2d6.

Yes, but rogue 17/Swordsage 3 gets 10d6 sneak attack with assassins stance. Which is just better than 8d6 sneak attack and 2d6 sudden strike. If you are looking at dipping out of rogue. Swordsage is better than ninja.

Yes, all martial weapons isn't great, but it is more than ninja gives you, and you get other useful maneuvers and stances as well.

[Curmudgeon]

Swordsage is better than ninja.

It depends what you want for a 3-level dip. Ninja gives Ghost Step for invisibility, which basically means sudden strike applies when they want it to.
Swordsages don't get any way to guarantee sneak attack. Ninjas also get poison use, and there's no way for Swordsages to duplicate that.

[Zore]

Swordsages can teleport. And get Dex to damage with the stance. And grab a few other maneuvers that are far superior to anything the Ninja has to offer. At level 20 you should have some way to get consistent sneak attack through items or tactics anyways.

[Mushroom Ninja]

It depends what you want for a 3-level dip. Ninja gives Ghost Step for invisibility, which basically means sudden strike applies when they want it to.

But after about level 10ish, everybody worth sudden-striking probably has access to see invisibility.

[Draz74]

Swordsages don't get any way to guarantee sneak attack.

I don't know what Swordsage class you're looking at, but it's definitely not the same one I'm familiar with. Not the one that gets Shadow Hand maneuvers.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't know what Swordsage class you're looking at, but it's definitely not the same one I'm familiar with. Not the one that gets Shadow Hand maneuvers.

Yes, Swordsages can use Cloak of Deception once per encounter. That's not what I'd call equivalent to the Ninja's Ghost Step; if they've got a decent Wisdom (or something like Expanded Ki Pool), they can just keep using it. Or do you expect the Swordsage to spend a full-round action in combat to recover that maneuver?

[Kaiyanwang]

Why not combine them? I mean, Ninja + Swordsage. There are Shadow Hands maneuvers that render the target flat-footed.

Couldn't the OP dip in Swordsage at high level, and take them as well with Assassin Stance?

I guess that with the blinding and "flatfooting" tactics described above, the class features, the maneuvers, the feats and the skill tricks, could be a fun PC to play.

Something like the Subtley Rogue in Wow..very careful to the sequence of maneuvers to perform to maximize:

1) control on the target

2) damage output

What do you think?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Why not combine them? I mean, Ninja + Swordsage. There are Shadow Hands maneuvers that render the target flat-footed.

Couldn't the OP dip in Swordsage at high level, and take them as well with Assassin Stance?

I guess that with the blinding and "flatfooting" tactics described above, the class features, the maneuvers, the feats and the skill tricks, could be a fun PC to play.

Something like the Subtley Rogue in Wow..very careful to the sequence of maneuvers to perform to maximize:

1) control on the target

2) damage output

What do you think?

I was waiting for some one to say that.

could even do ninja/rogue/SS...

you wouldn't want to take SS until you can get assassins stance which i believe would be 7th.
so Ninja 2/Rogue4/ss1
in that order.

[Frog Dragon]

Yes, Swordsages can use Cloak of Deception once per encounter. That's not what I'd call equivalent to the Ninja's Ghost Step; if they've got a decent Wisdom (or something like Expanded Ki Pool), they can just keep using it. Or do you expect the Swordsage to spend a full-round action in combat to recover that maneuver?

No. Lets assume a Ninja with a Wis of 18 and level 6. We've got 7 daily uses. I round for use. Now lets assume 4 encounters per day. The ninja does win here, even when he's saving a point for the will save bonus but then he will propably use some on Ki dodge leaving him on an even footing with the swordsage (invis wise) who get better abilities anyway compared to the other stuff the Ninja does. In addition to better HD and same skills. And at a bit higher levels, if you really care about your invis so much, buy a freakin ring. The swordsage also wins in damage die because Sneak Attack is way more combat useable than Sudden strike

When dipping (3 levels) Swordsage is even more superior to ninja due to ninja getting less Ki points (about 4-5) with the swordsage getting equal amounts of Cloak of Deception per day. 2d6 Sneak attack is better than 2d6 Sudden Strike. And the swordsage has better HD and you know.. OPTIONS other than the invis.

Now admittedly the Ninja invis has better distribution and the ninja wins in uses with the Expanded Ki Pool, but that's it. In every other area the Ninja loses.

[Thefurmonger]

all great info guys.

one of the reasons I wasnt too worried about SS Vs. SA was that i was planning on Confound the big folk and they are flatfooted to your attacks, with kobalds being Tiny (sort of) and having 3 nat attacks i didnt see it as a real problem.

But you guys are right I may splash all 3.