[4E] Build Suggestions?

[Moonlitdreams]

Hello fellow Playgrounders.

I am new to 4th Edition and going to be joining a tabletop game soon. I am considering playing an Avenger or Paladin/Cleric religious type. Could you all offer me some assistance with choosing powers, skills and feats? Also, any feedback on the classes themselves would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[KillianHawkeye]

Choose ones you like.



If you're a beginner, don't pick a feat that's so situational that you always forget about it, pick one that is generally useful to you.

[Artanis]

Hello fellow Playgrounders.

I am new to 4th Edition and going to be joining a tabletop game soon. I am considering playing an Avenger or Paladin/Cleric religious type. Could you all offer me some assistance with choosing powers, skills and feats? Also, any feedback on the classes themselves would be appreciated.

Thanks.

That's a rather broad request

Can you give us any more information on the character concept? Do you know what role (Controller, Leader, Striker, or Defender) you want to fill? Pretty much any information you can give would really help.

[Arbitrarity]

http://community.wizards.com/charop/...#39;s_Handbook
http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...erics_Handbook
http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...adins_Handbook

[holywhippet]

The aim of 4E is balance. There are, generally speaking, no class better than others. It's just a case of certain classes being better at certain roles. Strikers are good if you want to be a damage dealer. Leaders are good if you want to bolster your allies. Defenders are decent with damage but best at keeping their allies safe. Controllers are good at debuffing and restricting enemies.

For your early levels, grab the feats from PHB 2 that give you a +1 to hit with your chosen weapon/implement. Being able to connect with an attack is one of the most important things.

Consult with the other players to cover the different skills. It's not absolutely essential to cover them all though. For example, in my group nobody has any stealth or thievery training.

[Moonlitdreams]

That's a rather broad request

Can you give us any more information on the character concept? Do you know what role (Controller, Leader, Striker, or Defender) you want to fill? Pretty much any information you can give would really help.

I was considering a Defender, as the people I will be playing with seem to favor Strikers from the little I have seen. I loved Clerics in 3.5, so I would go with something similar if not for the fact that I do not know how changed they are yet. And if I could get a Controller/Defender type, that would make me even happier.

[Kylarra]

Paladin is probably what you want. Decent defender with an "oh crap" heal button when you need it.

[holywhippet]

I was considering a Defender, as the people I will be playing with seem to favor Strikers from the little I have seen. I loved Clerics in 3.5, so I would go with something similar if not for the fact that I do not know how changed they are yet. And if I could get a Controller/Defender type, that would make me even happier.

How much do you actually know about 4E? If you are asking how different clerics are between 3E and 4E then the answer is a lot. There is no spell memorisation in 4E - you just get at will, encounter and daily powers.

[Moonlitdreams]

How much do you actually know about 4E?

As stated in the OP, I'm new to 4th edition. I've flipped through the Player's Handbook and PB2, but that's about it...

I do know the basics of the types of powers already though.

[Reluctance]

Controller/defender sounds like it would require multiclassing. Unfortunately, invokers and paladins don't have much in the way of stat overlap. (The invoker's primary Wis does power some of the paladin's kicker effects, but neither of the paladin's primaries Str or Cha do anything for the invoker.

If you're willing to reach outside of the divine power source, swordmages not only work as defenders with controller secondary, they also allow you to multiclass in wizard well for even more controlling, or artificer for a spot of healing. It's in the forgotten realms book, but it doesn't feel out of place in other settings.

[holywhippet]

Well, mechanically many other classes can be similar to the cleric. For example, a warlord can provide healing by using their inspiring word power. Clerics do have some distinct powers of their own.

Personally the next time I roll up a new character I'm thinking of going with either a bard or a barbarian. The bard has a power that can turn an enemy into a health giving pinata.

[Bagelz]

I am considering playing an Avenger or Paladin/Cleric religious type.

I assume you want melee? Invokers are religious types too (controllers), but they are ranged. Avengers are melee strikers with a few ranged powers, think inquisitors, or secret police of the church. they go out and kill evil.
Paladins are defenders (and secondary healers) think knights or templars.
Clerics are leaders. They are the best healers in the game, and can turn the tide of battle, but won't be doing much in the way of damage themselves.

What does your party need? and what role do you want to play. The are all divine power sources but are completely different roles. You can make a pretty beastly healer out of a charisma paladin, but you'll lack the other buffs of a leader. You can build your cleric to be ok in melee but you won't be as good at support and buffs.

either way, for paladins and clerics, remember 1 channel divinity per encounter.

[ashmanonar]

Well, mechanically many other classes can be similar to the cleric. For example, a warlord can provide healing by using their inspiring word power. Clerics do have some distinct powers of their own.

This.

Don't let yourself get fooled by the name of the class; 4e is not 3.5. You're best off forgetting everything you ever learned about 3.5, because often you'll find that your 3.5 experience will mislead you when playing 4e.

Pick a role, and a style of play. (by this I mean, do you want to be a front-line combat leader, a sinister shadowy arcane killer, a shapeshifting defender of nature?) These ideas will inform which class best fits.

[Thajocoth]

Do you have access to stuff from Divine Power? I've heard Paladins got a lot of nice stuff from that book.

Do you know what race you want to be?

Also, I don't recommend spreading yourself too thin by splitting yourself between the Cha & Str based powers. Not for your first character, that is. It's totally doable... But I'd really wait until your second or third character to do something like that.

As a Paladin, you'll get the power to divinely challenge one enemy at a time. If they ignore your challenge (they attack one of your allies), they take damage based on your Cha. (For this reason, I would lean towards Cha as my primary stat, personally...)

The advantage of having Strength as your main stat instead is that, while your challenge won't deal as much damage, your Fortitude defense will be a bit higher.

You also get to choose between three options. Whichever one you choose, you can do it a number of times per day based on your Wisdom (In either main stat case, Wisdom should be your secondary stat):

* Lay on Hands - You can touch someone to let them heal, but it takes power from you. (You get a certain number of "Healing Surges" per day. That's the number of times you can be healed that day. This uses one of your healing surges, but heals them as if they used their own healing surge.)

* Ardent Vow - You can touch an enemy to gain a damage bonus to them based on your Wisdom and whenever you attack them, for the rest of the encounter, you put a divine sanction on them (so they take damage if they attack your ally on their turn instead of you).

* Virtue's Touch - You can touch someone to remove a bad condition effecting them (Blinded, dazed, deafened, slowed, stunned or weakened)

It seems to me that you're leaning a bit towards healing, so I'd recommend Lay on Hands. Besides, if you don't have access to Divine Power, Lay on Hands is your only option.

Also, do you know what race you want to be?

Purely by base stats:

Optimal Cha/Wis paladins: Kalashtar, Human
Optimal Str/Wis paladins: Human, Longtooth Shifter
Optimal Cha/Str paladins: Dragonborn
Ok Cha/Wis paladins: Half-Elf, Halfling, Human, Tiefling, Gnome, Changeling, Drow, Kenku, Goblin, Hobgoblin
Ok Str/Wis paladins: Human, Goliath, Half-Orc, Bugbear, Genasi, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged

[Moonlitdreams]

Also, do you know what race you want to be?

I was considering Dragonborn, but it looks like the Shifter may be a good option as well.

I assume you want melee?

Preferably, yes.

[Saintjebus]

If you want to go with defender/controller, pick a sword and board fighter. pick every power that says "push or slide". most of them require that you are holding a shield. Essentially, you will rearrange the battlefield every time it's your turn.

[Draz74]

I was considering Dragonborn, but it looks like the Shifter may be a good option as well.

Dragonborn make great Paladins. (Note that Paladin alignment restrictions are gone, too.)

Preferably, yes.

... yeah. You want a Paladin.

[Thajocoth]

I'm assuming level 1 here...

Dragonborn Paladin sample base stats:

Str/Cha build: 18 Str & Cha, 13 Wis, 11 Con, 10 Dex, 8 Int
20 AC, 15 Fort, 13 Ref, 15 Will
Lay on Hands 1/day
Radiant Damage when enemies ignore your challenge: 7
Cha attacks: +7
Str attacks: +7 (Dragonbreath would use this stat)
HP: 26

Cha/Wis build 1: 20 Cha, 14 Wis, 13 Str, 10 Dex & Con, 8 Int
20 AC, 12 Fort, 13 Ref, 16 Will
Lay on Hands 2/day
Radiant Damage when enemies ignore your challenge: 8
Cha attacks: +8
Str attacks: +4 (Dragonbreath would use this stat)
HP: 25

Cha/Wis build 2: 19 Cha, 16 Wis, 13 Str, 10 Dex & Con, 8 Int
20 AC, 12 Fort, 13 Ref, 15 Will
Lay on Hands 3/day
Radiant Damage when enemies ignore your challenge: 7
Cha attacks: +7
Str attacks: +4 (Dragonbreath would use this stat)
HP: 25

Str/Wis build 1: 20 Str, 14 Wis, 13 Cha, 10 Dex & Con, 8 Int
20 AC, 16 Fort, 13 Ref, 13 Will
Lay on Hands 2/day
Radiant Damage when enemies ignore your challenge: 4
Cha attacks: +4
Str attacks: +8 (Dragonbreath would use this stat)
HP: 25

Str/Wis build 2: 19 Str, 16 Wis, 13 Cha, 10 Dex & Con, 8 Int
20 AC, 15 Fort, 13 Ref, 14 Will
Lay on Hands 3/day
Radiant Damage when enemies ignore your challenge: 4
Cha attacks: +4
Str attacks: +7 (Dragonbreath would use this stat)
HP: 25

-----

Longtooth Shifter sample base stats

Str/Wis build 1: 20 Str, 16 Wis, 11 Con, 10 Dex & Cha, 8 Int
20 AC, 16 Fort, 13 Ref, 14 Will
Lay on Hands 3/day
Radiant Damage when enemies ignore your challenge: 3
Cha attacks: +3
Str attacks: +8
HP: 26

Str/Wis build 2: 19 Str, 18 Wis, 11 Con, 10 Dex & Cha, 8 Int
20 AC, 15 Fort, 13 Ref, 14 Will
Lay on Hands 4/day
Radiant Damage when enemies ignore your challenge: 3
Cha attacks: +3
Str attacks: +7
HP: 26

-----

Of course, there are many other options. The above assumes Plate Armor, Heavy Shield and Longsword too... If you decide to go with a 2H weapon instead, subtract 2 from the ACs and Reflexes listed, and if you decide to go with a weapon that's not a sword, subtract 1 from the attacks. The result would be an increase in damage though. Longsword is only 1d8 damage while something bigger might deal more... It's not the most common way to play a paladin, from what I've seen, but it's just as doable.

The Greataxe, for example, deals 1d12 damage and deals bonus damage on a crit. The Maul deals 2d6. A Greatsword is a sword that deals 1d10. Those are all 2-handed though, so you'd have to lose the shield to take them.

As far as how often each defense is attacked, on average: AC (attacked the most) > Reflex > Fort > Will (Attacked the least)

[Kurald Galain]

Also, I don't recommend spreading yourself too thin by splitting yourself between the Cha & Str based powers.

This. Pick one of the builds and stick with it, don't try to mix-and-match.

Note that if the DM is playing strategically, many monsters will simply ignore your mark (taking a bit of radiant damage in the progress). This is especially true for strength-paladins; three or four damage is simply negligible to most enemies. This is why cha-paladins make better defenders (although fighters and swordmages blow them out of the water, really).

The Divine Power book has a feat that increases your mark damage by five, and I suggest you take it ASAP.

As far as how often each defense is attacked, on average: AC (attacked the most) > Reflex > Fort > Will (Attacked the least)

On the other hand, as far as how often nasty effects like dazes, stuns and dominates occur when you are hit by an attack: Will > Fort > Reflex > AC. In other words, will may be attacked less often, but being hit on will and stunned is much nastier than being hit on AC and taking a bit of damage.

[Mando Knight]

Here's another stat spread that I like for a Dragonborn Str-Paladin:
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 14.

This grants you a decent attack modifier, two uses of your Lay On Hands power per day, +2 to your Divine Challenge damage, and will let you more easily qualify for feats like Shield or Armor Specialization.

[Yakk]

Str Paladins need to pick up the "apply str to divine challenge" feat.

Any of the cha-high characters should be tempted by the divine sanction applying powers.

If you go str+cha, getting the str to divine challenge feat, using sanction on target 1, then dropping divine challenge on a different adjacent target, will make you quite sticky.

At epic with a starting 18/18 and demigod/chosen destiny, you are talking 27 auto-hit burn damage if they ignore your challenge, and 18 if they ignore your sanction, on top of a -2 or -3 to hit. Grab the fighter multiclass and get a 1/encounter bonus basic melee attack to top that off!

The downside? Only 1/day use of lay on hands, or ardent vow, or the 'cure bad effect' power.

[Guinea Anubis]

Here's another stat spread that I like for a Dragonborn Str-Paladin:
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 14.

This grants you a decent attack modifier, two uses of your Lay On Hands power per day, +2 to your Divine Challenge damage, and will let you more easily qualify for feats like Shield or Armor Specialization.

I was going to say do something like this.

[DSCrankshaw]

This. Pick one of the builds and stick with it, don't try to mix-and-match.

Note that if the DM is playing strategically, many monsters will simply ignore your mark (taking a bit of radiant damage in the progress). This is especially true for strength-paladins; three or four damage is simply negligible to most enemies. This is why cha-paladins make better defenders (although fighters and swordmages blow them out of the water, really).

The Divine Power book has a feat that increases your mark damage by five, and I suggest you take it ASAP.

Actually, it adds Str to your Divine Challenge damage. This makes Str paladins the equal of Cha paladins with DC, and makes balanced paladins impossible to ignore. DP put paladins much higher in the defender ranks, at least the equal of most fighter builds. In addition to the aforementioned Mighty Challenge feat, it adds a new kind of mark, Divine Sanction. It does the same damage as DC (except Mighty Challenge doesn't add Str to it), but doesn't require engagement and lasts as long as the power says. For a number of dailies, it's the entire encounter. So you can hit someone with a DS power, and for the rest of the encounter, he takes damage every time he attacks someone besides you, while you can simply ignore him and DC someone else. Other powers will hit a number of enemies with DS (one level 2 encounter utility hits every enemy in burst 3 until the end of your next turn), and a number of the strength DS powers will add wisdom to the damage an enemy takes.

My advice for building a paladin without DP is to make it Charisma, and take Melee Training (Cha) right away. Post-DP, you can still go that way (although you may want to take Virtuous Strike and save a feat). If you go Strength, though, you'll probably get the most oomph by dividing your secondary between Charisma and Wisdom.

The downside? Only 1/day use of lay on hands, or ardent vow, or the 'cure bad effect' power.

Which is why you should take Untiring Virtue in Paragon, and get a new one every milestone.

[Mando Knight]

Another thing you'll want to look into is the Paragon-level magic item Blade of the Eldritch Knight from the Adventurer's Vault 2. Combined with a Longsword or Bastard Sword, you'll be able to use the Divine Power at-will Ardent Strike to keep a nonadjacent enemy continuously marked with your Divine Sanction so long as they remain within 5 squares of you.

[Moonlitdreams]

Thank you everyone! This has given me a lot to think about.

[Thajocoth]

Guys, he's still making a level 1 character... Paragon Tier is, like, a year away... I don't really think planning that far ahead is wise with all the books that will come out between now and then, as well as all the other stuff that could happen...