Psychic Warrior Build Help

[EvilRoeSlade]

Hey, I'm trying to create a character from a monastery whose very disciplined and aesthetic, and instead of going with monk (ugh) I thought maybe I'd try to play a psychic warrior.

Character starts at 1st level but I'd also like advice on what powers and feats I should take at later levels. I don't have access to Complete Psionic, but I do have just about any other book that might matter.

[Longcat]

You can take both, and take the "Tashalatora" feat from "Secrets of Sarlona". It let's Monk stack with one psychic class of your choice for the purpose of unarmed damage.

So yeah, you could go Monk2/Pychic Warrior18.

[PhoenixRivers]

Tashalatora's good, but it dilutes the concept with PsyWar.
It's solid with Ardent, but that's CompPsi.

Powers that are useful:

1) Psionic Lion's Charge
2) Expansion
3) Any Vampiric weapon effect
4) Mobility based effects.

Feats:

1) Power Attack/Charger line is good.
2) Deep impact and the like can be alright for that one big hit.
3) Practiced Manifester, if you go out of class for some reason.
4) Expanded Knowledge can gank a few useful powers from the psion list, at higher levels.
5) Up the walls/speed of thought can be good at low levels, but avoid if retraining isn't an option.

[ex cathedra]

Using Claws of the Beast, Psychic Warriors emulate terrific unarmed combatants.

For a psychic warrior, I would recommend feats like Earth Power (Races of Stone), Overchannel (and perhaps Talented, but it isn't as useful), Expanded Knowledge, and whatever other feats fit your specific purpose. Track can be nice if you decide to go the slayer route, which grants full BAB progression, 9/10s manifesting, and several pleasant class features.

Powers of note? Claws of the Beast, Inertial Armor, Expansion, and Vigor are all useful.

Additionally, a note on Psionic Lion's Charge;
Due to the wording of the ability, the only temporary effect that it grants you is a bonus on damage. The real gem of the power is the pounce effect, which is given to you permanently. You can save on powers known just by purchasing a power stone of psionic lion's charge and manifest it once using that. This costs roughly 200gp, and by virtue of being a psychic warrior you can manifest it without mucking about with Use Psionic Device checks.

[jokey665]

Additionally, a note on Psionic Lion's Charge;
Due to the wording of the ability, the only temporary effect that it grants you is a bonus on damage. The real gem of the power is the pounce effect, which is given to you permanently. You can save on powers known just by purchasing a power stone of psionic lion's charge and manifest it once using that. This costs roughly 200gp, and by virtue of being a psychic warrior you can manifest it without mucking about with Use Psionic Device checks.

Hoooooooooly crap, I never noticed that. That's interesting. Duration: Instantaneous for the win?

[PhoenixRivers]

Good luck finding a DM that will actually support that ruling. That is legal in the same sense as drowning to heal is legal.

[Eldariel]

Monk 2/Psy War X with Tashalatora isn't really bad; Unarmed Strikes interact incredibly with natural attacks and Psy War really works mostly off his low-level powers anyways (though you'll definitely need Manifester Bullets or Arrows to cover the lack of PP that's already a problem with Psy War).

But yeah, straight Psy War focusing on Claws is very respectable too. Monk 2/Psy War 18 (Ardent is respectable also) is probably better if you want to pretend to be a monastery-trained character though given that Tashalatora advances pretty much all the relevant Monk-abilities without taking levels in Monk.

[Person_Man]

Obligatory link.

What are your stats and books allowed?

[Lycanthromancer]

Well, what you'll want to do with your psychic warrior depends a lot on the specifics of your game and how you want to do things.

You could focus on crowd control with a reach weapon, expansion, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip. You could go assassin with compression, chameleon, bite of the wolf, a whisper gnome, and some poison created via psionic minor creation (though you'll want to use the poison more for sneaking lotus-flavored death into the target's food; later metamorphosis to turn into a Fine-sized creature to sneak around). You could use the savage progression from thri-kreen, and go for a multiweapon pouncing charger. You could go for a (surprisingly effective) archer, using strength of my enemy and a bow of the wintermoon.

And if you can, try to get the Linked Power feat from CPsi. It's the one thing that's nigh indispensable for psychic warriors (though you'll mainly want to use it with Swift action self-buff powers as the primary manifestation so you can avoid the targeting rigmarole).

Remember that you can research powers for a small amount of time and XP, or you can take Expanded Knowledge for powers off of your normal list. Metamorphosis, share pain, schism, and psionic minor creation are especially delicious.

Also: psicrystals. They make awesome combat partners and mounts (especially after you get metamorphosis), and have 1,001 uses beyond that. Very nice.

Anyway, let us know what kind of combat monster you want to make and the specifics of your game, and it'll make it easier for us to help.

[Samb]

Psywar is one of the best melée fighters in the game but for your fluff I think a psionic fist would be better. They use the same list as psywar and they progress monk umarmed strike. Warmind and zerth cenobite are also worth considering as both also use psywar list. You don't get the level 6 powers but other than form of doom the rest of the 6th level powers generally suck.

[Samb]

Oh and for feats you'll want psionic body, and lots of psionic talent. Surprised that no one mentioned them yet.

Psionic body will give you 2 HP for every psionic feat you have, including itself. So even though you have a bad HD this will go a long way to making up for that.

Psionic talent is a must for psywars since you have almost no PP pool. You should get at least 5-6 of this feat to give yourself a decent boost on your PP pool (27 if selected 6 times), but if you can manage more then by all means do so because after playing something like psion, ardent or wilder you will cry at how pathetic their PP pool is. Yes psywar gets a lot of feats, but almost half of them need to be spent on this feat..... a shame really.

Oh do try to fit metamorphic transfer in there.....

[Stegyre]

Additionally, a note on Psionic Lion's Charge;
Due to the wording of the ability, the only temporary effect that it grants you is a bonus on damage. The real gem of the power is the pounce effect, which is given to you permanently. You can save on powers known just by purchasing a power stone of psionic lion's charge and manifest it once using that. This costs roughly 200gp, and by virtue of being a psychic warrior you can manifest it without mucking about with Use Psionic Device checks.

Um, no?
The duration of this power is "instaneous." You manifest it "as you charge," and you are able to make a full attack at the end of the charge. Three pp expended, and it's over. Are we reading the same Psionic Lion's Charge?

[Glimbur]

Wall of Stone has an instantaneous duration. It permanently makes a nonmagical wall of stone. There are other spells with this duration. They permanently make a change which cannot later be dispelled.

Is this a stupid typo in the duration of lions charge? Yes, it should last one round. But that's RAW for you.

[tyckspoon]

Um, no?
The duration of this power is "instaneous." You manifest it "as you charge," and you are able to make a full attack at the end of the charge. Three pp expended, and it's over. Are we reading the same Psionic Lion's Charge?

Yep. It's Instantaneous. That means whatever it does lasts forever as a real change, in the same way Wall of Stone makes a real, physical, non-dispellable wall of stone. And what it does is grant you the Pounce ability. The intent of the power would be better matched with a Duration of "1 charge action" or similar, but the text gives you Pounce.

[Samb]

Um, no?
The duration of this power is "instaneous." You manifest it "as you charge," and you are able to make a full attack at the end of the charge. Three pp expended, and it's over. Are we reading the same Psionic Lion's Charge?

IIRC instantanous means it lasts until it is used. So once you manifest it it will stay on you until you charge. I have never played PLC like that but by RAW it should work. In fact if you linked it to itself you could be getting 2 full attacks in one round! No sane DM would allow this and it almost certeinly isn't RAI but the wording in PLC allows for it. There are even worse things you can do with this but I would not recommend them.

RAI you use PLC on a charge and you get a full attack and +1 to attack and damage for that turn. Nothing more nothing less.

[Samb]

Reread what instantanous duration means:

Instantaneous
The psionic energy comes and goes the instant the power is manifested, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

so no, it doesn't last forever. It lasts for that round and if you don't use it, you lose it. The description does say "though the conseqences might long-lasting" which may lead so to think all in powers with this duration last forever. The key word is might which is not the same as is. Nothing in PLC states that it would an exception and it is pretty clear that the "I get pounce forever" view was not RAI to start with.

[ex cathedra]

That's... incorrect, from a literal standpoint.

The ability has a duration of instantaneous. The only thing that 'lasts for one round' is the augment ability, as it specifies that it only affects the current round (that is, the round in which you manifest this). The ability of PLC, however?

You gain the powerful charging ability of a lion. When you charge, you can make a full attack in the same round.

That is the ability. It has no duration, and due to the instantaneous label of the power, PLC simply gives you pounce. The XPH received errata, and psionic lion's charge was left untouched, while several other powers were altered/clarified.

Regardless of whether or not this is intentional, it is true. Samb, your interpretation of the instantaneous duration is entirely illogical, RAI though it may be. Instantaneous creates an effect, and this effect only has a duration if a duration is listed. By your reading, a wall of stone may as well last less than a round.

In all honestly, however, I have no problem with the ability. Pounce should be easier to acquire. Martial classes deserve to be able to move and perform their primary focus (melee combat). Most spells are standard actions. The inherent unfairness in this only serves to exacerbate the power level differences between martial and full arcane/divine/psionic classes. I'd rather pounce be free than 200gp and a skill check (which, due to psionic lion's charge power stones, it currently is).

[Fluffles]

I mean look, Fireball has an duration of instantaneous, but does it last forever? Nope.

[Glimbur]

I mean look, Fireball has an duration of instantaneous, but does it last forever? Nope.

If fireball had a different duration, would it keep exploding until the duration runs out? Or would the damage wear off when the duration ran out?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Anyway, let us know what kind of combat monster you want to make and the specifics of your game, and it'll make it easier for us to help.

I'm mainly interested in doing tons of damage and making sure I have my enemies undivided attention.

What are your stats and books allowed?

I'm allowed to use anything published by WoTC. Stats are 28 point buy, I was also allowed to roll using 2d6+6 for each stat but I tried that and got horrible results (14, 14, 10, 10, 10, 8). Not allowed to reroll them but I am allowed to go with point buy instead.

As for Lion's Charge... regardless of the actual wording, I'm certain that the intent behind it was for it to only last one round, and I doubt I'll be able to convince my DM otherwise even if I was inclined to try.

[Ostien]

the instantaneous duration does not mean it would last forever. By this same logic fireball would last forever as it specifies no duration. Sure, it says explosion and talks about it having no pressure but nothing about dissipation. This is plain absurd.

Some argue that otherwise wall of stone would last only an instant but if you read the spell it says you create a wall of stone and it is a creation spell. Wall of stone last forever (until normally destroyed) not because of the instantaneous duration but because it is a creation spell. C'mon people.

EDIT: PROOF:

Creation

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

again it is a creation spell and PLC and Fireball are not..

[Samb]

I mean look, Fireball has an duration of instantaneous, but does it last forever? Nope.

This is a good example. I don't think literal reading of what instantaneous is wrong. It plainly states that the spell/power lasts that one round.

That is the ability. It has no duration, and due to the instantaneous label of the power, PLC simply gives you pounce. The XPH received errata, and psionic lion's charge was left untouched, while several other powers were altered/clarified.

No errata was printed because none were needed. The duration for PLC is plainly stated as instantaneous. Which by SRD means: last for this round and dissappears afterwards. To say that it lasts forever is more wishful thinking than rule laywering.


Magic missile also has an instantaneous duation so by your flawed interpatation what does it do? Keep shooting unmissable bolts forever?

The fact that it is also RAI just makes PLC=pounce even more illogical.

[ex cathedra]

So, if an instantaneous spell isn't creation, the effects immediately dissipate?

Tell that to Awaken Animal/Undead/Construct. Your 'proof' is anything but.

Edit:

No errata was printed because none were needed. The duration for PLC is plainly stated as instantaneous. Which by SRD means: last for this round and dissappears afterwards. To say that it lasts forever is more wishful thinking than rule laywering.

What?

That is in no way what instantaneous means. That's not even wishful thinking, your definition. That's just a willful misinterpretation of a term.

Awaken has an instantaneous duration. It isn't a creation effect. It explicitly states that a creature awakened gains 3d6 int, +1d3 cha, and 2 HD. By your absurdly flawed misunderstanding of the word instantaneous awaken gives a creature 2HD for a single round.

[Samb]

So, if an instantaneous spell isn't creation, the effects immediately dissipate?

Tell that to Awaken Animal/Undead/Construct. Your 'proof' is anything but.

Then please tell me why magic missiles don't last forever? Why don't fireballs stay around forever exploding till kingdom come? The description plainly states that it happens within that round and goes away. Some powers and spells have effects that last longer/permenant but they are the exception not the rule.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Could you take the derailment to a new thread, it's not particularly helpful to my build.

[Ostien]

So, if an instantaneous spell isn't creation, the effects immediately dissipate?

Tell that to Awaken Animal/Undead/Construct. Your 'proof' is anything but.

Those spells are transmutation and impart a inherent score. So the spell alters the creature but then dissipates, which is why it gives you not additional control over the creature. You muck around in their brain parts then leave.

[ex cathedra]

Apologies, OP. I've moved the discussion here.

[Lycanthromancer]

Definitely get rid of the rolls you made; point buy is 100% better.

How about this...

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 8

Human psychic warrior 1, with a glaive, guisarme, or other reach weapon, and a spiked gauntlet (lets you have reach and adjacent attacks), Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip (with Hidden Talent: psionic minor creation and Psicrystal Affinity if you're taking flaws), and expansion as a power known.

During a fight, you use expansion to grow to Large (with 20' reach, and additional Str and natural armor), then move up to where your foes are on the edge of your threatened area and must take an AoO to attack you or your companions. If they move or use a ranged weapon, they get AoO'd and Tripped (with an extra attack on the end, to boot). When they stand, you get another AoO if you have one left.

Expansion gives you a bonuses to a LOT of battlefield maneuvers (such as Trip, Disarm, Bull-Rushes, etc, and you don't take AoOs on those maneuvers if your enemies don't have as much reach as you do (hence, a guisarme or glaive). It's kinda like getting a boatload of free feats, right there.

At 2nd level, take Linked Power and bite of the wolf (gives you much better damage than your gauntlet will). At 3rd, take grip of iron and the Power Attack feat (or something else, as you like).

From there, use your powers and feats to give you more options during a fight. Your damage will be excellent regardless, and will scale quite well, so mostly pick your powers from those that give you more unexpected ways to put the hurt on (I like animal affinity and strength of my enemy, myself). And definitely get your grubby little hands fiendish claws on metamorphosis when you can.

[EvilRoeSlade]

No flaws.

14 Str nets me with a total of +2 to attack which means my odds of actually hitting anything at this level are pathetic.

What I was thinking was this:

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

How does that look?

Combat Expertise would be nice but I'd need an Int of 13 for that.

[Lycanthromancer]

No flaws.

14 Str nets me with a total of +2 to attack which means my odds of actually hitting anything at this level are pathetic.

What I was thinking was this:

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

How does that look?

Combat Expertise would be nice but I'd need an Int of 13 for that.

Ah. Right. 13 Int. Too bad you can't pull more out of Cha. But as far as the 14 Str goes, remember that you get +2 Str from expansion, and it's a touch attack. Then you gain a +4 from size and a +4 from Improved Trip on the opposed Str check, and an additional attack after your foe is prone (so you get a nice juicy bonus from that, too).

But if you make your Dex 12, you won't be able to use Combat Reflexes for your AoOs (since it's lowered from expansion to 10), which means your first round is always spent buffing without getting any real attacks in (and you won't be able to use Improved Trip.

Hmm. 28 point buy is crap. Your rolled array is even worse.

How do you feel about being a warforged or an orc?