[4e] Am I up to par?

[Burley]

I built a Halfling Storm Sorceror, and I can't tell if I'm putting out decent damage. At 12th level, I'm hitting 1d8+22 with Storm Walk, and 1d4+20 with Blazing Starfall. I multiclassed into wizard for Thunderwave and Enlarge Spell (increases blasts and bursts by 1).

Is a rough 1d4+18 on an Area Burst 2 within ten squares decent? Should I maybe think about dropping Energy Admixture onto Blazing Starfall to give it the Lightning keyword? Can you EnAd at-wills?
I dunno.

Where should I go from here? I'm packin' a Staff of Defense and a Staff of Ruin.

[Mando Knight]

Arcane Admixture works on At-Wills, so you can have your lightning star.

Wizard MC is usually rather weak for a Sorcerer. Enlarge Spell, however, is ridiculously good, especially since the Sorcerer isn't lacking in static damage modifiers. Blazing Starfall itself is also unfortunately rather weak for not-Cosmic sorcerers, since it deals less variable damage than a wizard at-will covering the same area.

However, you're dealing around 20 points of damage to everything within a 25 foot diameter blast. That will level a lot of minions, and will spread a decent amount of damage fairly evenly across a mass of enemies, which is what the Sorcerer's area powers are for.

[Burley]

So... I do good? Awesome.

Okay, my friend gave me a little grief over my defenses.
21 Fort, 23 Reflex, 27 Will, AC 23. (I think the character builder has me at 20, but I may have forgot to "equip" my +3 shirt.)
I thought about dropping my 12th level feat for Staff fighting, just to give me that defensive weapon bonus to AC, but is +1 AC worth the feat? I can't remeber what I took at 12th, so, it probably wasn't super important...


Also, I've got a +15 to hit. I think all of my powers are vs. Ref and Fort. Is that decent? I know that at 11th level, our group's rogue had some ungodly high to hit. Like +20 or something that made me want to vomit on his character sheet. Is +15 vs NADs decent for a striker?

[Kurald Galain]

is +1 AC worth the feat?

Generally, no. There are a variety of effective and/or flashy feats to take at any level, especially early heroic and early paragon. Examples include Enlarge Spell, multiclass feats, and various damage boosts. You'd have to be seriously running out of feats before considering spending one on a mere +5% to defense.

e.g. Leather Armor used to be an automatic pick for wizards, but that's a plus two to AC; and since AP came out that isn't one of the best feats any more, either.

I know that at 11th level, our group's rogue had some ungodly high to hit. Like +20 or something that made me want to vomit on his character sheet.

Rogues are supposed to have an ungodly to-hit. Remember that most of your sorcerer powers are area effects; this compensates for your lower to-hit roll, as does the fact that you usually target NADs.

[Bagelz]

So... I do good? Awesome.

Also, I've got a +15 to hit. I think all of my powers are vs. Ref and Fort. Is that decent? I know that at 11th level, our group's rogue had some ungodly high to hit. Like +20 or something that made me want to vomit on his character sheet. Is +15 vs NADs decent for a striker?

at lvl 12, 15 is good. shoot for 10+1/2lvl (16 for you) 20 is rediculous.
If you find yourself missing a lot, retrain some powers for the ones that do less damage but +2 or so on your attack. every class has a couple of those. Also the chances that you have a hard time with both ref AND fort on the same monster are low, but look to see if you can pick up a vs will somewhere.

as for your AC you're ranged right? and theres a defender in the party? don't worry about it, you have good will and reflex.

[Burley]

I just thought of something: Would it not be more beneficial to drop Multiclass: Wizard and Enlarge Spell, and pick up Resounding Thunder and Energy Admixture or Arcane Reach?

[Kurald Galain]

I just thought of something: Would it not be more beneficial to drop Multiclass: Wizard and Enlarge Spell, and pick up Resounding Thunder and Energy Admixture or Arcane Reach?

Not really. Enlarge spell is much better than Resounding Thunder, considering it works on all your spells rather than just your thunder spells.

Although the two stack, and each of those feats is better than +1 on AC.

[Burley]

But considering almost, if not all of, my area/burst spells have the Thunder keyword anyway, why would I want to sacrifice two points of guaranteed damage?

[Yakk]

So... I do good? Awesome.

Okay, my friend gave me a little grief over my defenses.
21 Fort, 23 Reflex, 27 Will, AC 23. (I think the character builder has me at 20, but I may have forgot to "equip" my +3 shirt.)

The trick with defences is to subtract your level -- 12 in your case.

Fort: 9+L
Reflex: 11+L
Will: 15+L
AC: 11+L

14+L is decent AC, and 12+L is decent in your NADs.

Also, I've got a +15 to hit. I think all of my powers are vs. Ref and Fort. Is that decent? I know that at 11th level, our group's rogue had some ungodly high to hit. Like +20 or something that made me want to vomit on his character sheet. Is +15 vs NADs decent for a striker?

Rogues get a +4 to hit edge on you just for using a dagger. And rarely target non-AC defences.

Once again, subtract your level:
Attack: +3+L vs NADs
That is an acceptable to-hit score. Note that in games where the DM likes throwing fewer, higher level opponents instead of lots of lower level opponents when they are challenging the party makes +to hit matter more than 'it should'. If your DM has that style, gathering every ounce of +to hit is important.

...

And yes, Thunder Admixture + Resounding Thunder is a great combo of two feats. As is destructive wizardry.

Enlarge Spell, Thunder Admixture Blasing Starfall, Resounding Thunder, Destructive Wizardry = Burst 3 at-will that deals 1d4+stat+stat+implement+other damage, assuming it hits at least 2 targets.

[Gralamin]

If you want a source for a lot of Yakk's data, It's been worked out before with the prebuilt monsters. Specifically the important tables are...

                    1-10   11-20   21-30+  Overall
AC - Level         14.01   14.45   14.69     14.29   
Fortitude - Level  12.25   13.31   13.81     12.90   
Reflex - Level     11.50   11.38   12.05     11.54   
Will - Level       10.74   11.25   11.01     10.98

                                1-10   11-20   21-30+  Overall
Attack vs. AC - Level           4.47    4.41    4.55      4.46
Attack vs. Fortitude - Level    3.15    3.15    3.07      3.13
Attack vs. Reflex - Level       3.14    3.01    2.95      3.03
Attack vs. Will - Level         2.97    3.39    2.75      3.13

Then its just simple math to figure out your chance to be hit, and their chance of hitting you.

[Burley]

So, what I gather is that I'm average or slightly better in all regards. Thanks everybody.

Oh, I have another question: I looked over the White Lotus feats a minute ago, and White Lotus Riposte seems pretty good, especially when I jump up to the White Lotus Master Riposte. 1d8+22 from Storm Walk possibly twice in one round seems SICK!
Am I correct?

[Yakk]

So, what I gather is that I'm average or slightly better in all regards. Thanks everybody.

No; your Fort is weak, your Reflex is marginal, and your AC means you should seriously attempt to avoid entering melee range and hide behind your allies.

Your Will is quite strong:

Fort: 9+L
Reflex: 11+L
Will: 15+L
AC: 11+L

Oh, I have another question: I looked over the White Lotus feats a minute ago, and White Lotus Riposte seems pretty good, especially when I jump up to the White Lotus Master Riposte. 1d8+22 from Storm Walk possibly twice in one round seems SICK!
Am I correct?

Yes, but the opponent has to attack you. It is basically a "stay away and ignore me" feat.

I find that it works even better with a Burst or Blast attack (note that opponents cannot do an OA during their turn).

[Burley]

Oh... I misunderstood you, Yakk. I have problems when I see too many numbers at once. Good thing I'm not an accountant in real life. Haha... Oh... wait...

Okay, so, I need to wait until I get home to my Character Builder to really check it, but I think I can swap my wizard stuff for Resounding Thunder and Admixture. I really don't think any of my area attacks, other than my [Thundering] Starfall, are lightning. I think ResThun is the way to go. But, I'll research.

How does the White Lotus Paragon Path match up, power wise? It seems really useful, much more useful that the Storm Sorceror's Paragon Path.

[Guinea Anubis]

sounds like your on par to me.

[tcrudisi]

Here's one of my characters to compare yourself too, although I am only level 9 and I am a Halfling Wild Sorc.

AC: 23 (usually 25 due to Boots of the Fencing Master + Wild Soul)
Fort: 17
Ref: 22 (usually 23 due to Boots of the Fencing Master)
Will: 23

My Blazing Starfall does 1d4 + 17 (+2 more if target is bloodied) damage.

The main problem my Sorc has is that the DM is kinda greedy when it comes to giving out magical items. Every magical item that my character has is at least one level lower then he is. For example: I should definitely have another +1 to AC, and probably 2 more points. My NADs should be 1 point higher. My damage should be 1-2 points higher. I have a +12 to hit.

At level 12, my stats will look like this: AC 25 (usually 27) / Fort: 19 / Ref: 24 (usually 25) / Will: 26 ... Blazing Starfall will do 1d4 + 18, although this is ignoring feats to increase my damage, and I will have 3 paragon level feats by 12. My +hit will be 15. All of this is ignoring magical item acquisition and feats, and simply adding +1 Cha (since it becomes even) and +2 due to half-level.

[DSCrankshaw]

Sorcerers are artillery, so they don't live and die by defenses as much as, say, defenders. Pretty much everyone has at least one weak defense anyway (a lot of defenders have a low reflex, which is why they need shields).

The question isn't so much are your defenses lower than the numbers say they should be, but rather, are you taking a lot of damage in combat? If you're staying back from the front line, the defenders are holding attention on them, the controllers are keeping the enemy away, and the DM isn't going after you... if, in other words, you're not being attacked much, then having your defenses a little below average isn't a problem.

While higher defenses is always good, only make a serious investment to buff them if you feel you're getting hit too much.

[Burley]

Here's what I have so far. What do you think?

Spoiler

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Tibalt, level 12
Halfling, Sorcerer, Academy Master
Spell Source: Storm Magic
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Arcane Admixture Power: Blazing Starfall

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 16, Dex 19, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 21.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 15, Dex 14, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 23 Fort: 22 Reflex: 23 Will: 27
HP: 83 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 20

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +14, Diplomacy +16, Bluff +16, Intimidate +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +12, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +9, Heal +6, History +7, Insight +6, Nature +8, Perception +6, Religion +7, Stealth +10, Streetwise +11, Thievery +12, Athletics +7

FEATS
Level 1: Tempest Magic
Level 2: Nimble Spellcaster
Level 4: Rising Spellfury
Level 6: Implement Expertise (staff)
Level 8: White Lotus Riposte
Level 10: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 11: Arcane Admixture
Level 12: Arcane Familiar

POWERS
Sorcerer at-will 1: Storm Walk
Sorcerer at-will 1: Blazing Starfall
Sorcerer encounter 1: Whirlwind
Sorcerer daily 1: Howling Tempest
Sorcerer utility 2: Spatial Trip
Sorcerer encounter 3: Dancing Lightning
Sorcerer daily 5: Thunder Leap
Sorcerer utility 6: Sudden Scales
Sorcerer encounter 7: Thunder Bomb
Sorcerer daily 9: Bounding Bolt
Sorcerer utility 10: Narrow Escape

ITEMS
Staff of Ruin +3, Defensive Staff +3, Summoned Githweave Armor +3, Adventurer's Kit, Cloak of the Walking Wounded +2
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[Mando Knight]

What's your familiar? Oso de la Fez? Beholderkin?

I'm not too sure on how much Rising Spellfury is going to help, since it only activates on at-wills... you might want to look into trading that for Leather Armor Proficiency. Drowmesh gives you a better set of defense boosts than Githweave, since you're a class that has a +2 bonus to Will on top of having a Will stat for the primary attribute.

[Decoy Lockbox]

I've always thought the storm sorceror idea was cool, so I whipped one up awhile ago. It was also level 12, so I thought it would be a good comparison to yours.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Stormy, level 12
Drow, Sorcerer, Lightning Fury
Build: Storm Sorcerer
Spell Source: Storm Magic
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Darkfire: Darkfire Charisma
Arcane Admixture Power: Blazing Starfall

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 12, Dex 21, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 22.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 17.


AC: 26 Fort: 19 Reflex: 24 Will: 26
HP: 89 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +11, Intimidate +19, Diplomacy +17, Bluff +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +11, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +7, Heal +6, History +6, Insight +6, Nature +6, Perception +6, Religion +6, Stealth +13, Streetwise +12, Thievery +11, Athletics +5

FEATS
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Staff)
Level 4: Toughness
Level 6: Echoes of Thunder
Level 8: Improved Initiative
Level 10: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 11: Arcane Admixture
Level 12: Resounding Thunder
Feat User Choice: Implement Expertise (staff)

POWERS
Sorcerer at-will 1: Lightning Strike
Sorcerer at-will 1: Blazing Starfall
Sorcerer encounter 1: Whirlwind
Sorcerer daily 1: Howling Tempest
Sorcerer utility 2: Sorcerous Sirocco
Sorcerer encounter 3: Thundering Gust
Sorcerer daily 5: Serpentine Blast
Sorcerer utility 6: Lightning Shift
Sorcerer encounter 7: Thunder Bomb
Sorcerer daily 9: Howling Hurricane
Sorcerer utility 10: Narrow Escape

ITEMS
Staff of Ruin +3, Magic Dagger +3, Feytouched Drowmesh +3, Cloak of Distortion +2, Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier), Boots of the Fencing Master (heroic tier), Executioner's Bracers (heroic tier), Siberys Shard of the Mage (heroic tier)
================================================== =======

The "user selected feat" implement expertise is from a houserule my DM uses -- free expertise for characters. It can be traded off with improved initiative in order to create a non-houseruled character.

Stormy's attacks stats:

+16 vs NADS
damage = [dice]+25 (+27 vs bloodied targets)

His defenses aren't stellar, but the range on his spells combined with his cloak of distortion should keep him relatively safe from both melee and ranged attacks. His main weakness is area bursts targeting fort or reflex.

So as you can see, your sorcerer is fairly close to mine. Your AC could use some improvement, which is easily obtainable by getting leather armor proficiency. The sorcerer seems to be a class that is susceptible to having a single really bad NAD, as the class is always desiring more charisma and str or dex. So dex sorcerers will have terrible Fortitude, and str sorcerers will have terrible reflex.

[Burley]

What's your familiar? Oso de la Fez? Beholderkin?

I'm not too sure on how much Rising Spellfury is going to help, since it only activates on at-wills... you might want to look into trading that for Leather Armor Proficiency. Drowmesh gives you a better set of defense boosts than Githweave, since you're a class that has a +2 bonus to Will on top of having a Will stat for the primary attribute.

My familiar is a Bluespawn Nimblespark. If I were going for a power build, I'd drop the familiar and bring Resounding Thunder in at 12th. But, I got excited and wrote a backstory and now I need to have a familiar.

And, I meant to drop Spellfury for something, but I got distracted and not I don't remember what I was gonna do. So, I picked up leather, like you suggested. Good choice. My will is only a 26 now, but my AC and Reflex just went up a bit.

Stormy*
FEATS
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Staff)
Level 4: Toughness
Level 6: Echoes of Thunder
Level 8: Improved Initiative
Level 10: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 11: Arcane Admixture
Level 12: Resounding Thunder
Feat User Choice: Implement Expertise (staff)

I don't understand why you took Echoes of Thunder instead of Tempest Magic.
Also, why not take... Oh, what's the feat? Gives you expertise when you use it as a weapon or as an implement? Bugger... I shoulda taken that, too...

[Tiki Snakes]

My familiar is a Bluespawn Nimblespark. If I were going for a power build, I'd drop the familiar and bring Resounding Thunder in at 12th. But, I got excited and wrote a backstory and now I need to have a familiar.

And, I meant to drop Spellfury for something, but I got distracted and not I don't remember what I was gonna do. So, I picked up leather, like you suggested. Good choice. My will is only a 26 now, but my AC and Reflex just went up a bit.



I don't understand why you took Echoes of Thunder instead of Tempest Magic.
Also, why not take... Oh, what's the feat? Gives you expertise when you use it as a weapon or as an implement? Bugger... I shoulda taken that, too...

Focused Expertise, i think. Good, but more specific to one type of weapon/item.

[Burley]

Right. And, if I'm dual-wielding staff implements, it wouldn't hurt to have Focused Expertise, yeah?

[Tiki Snakes]

Right. And, if I'm dual-wielding staff implements, it wouldn't hurt to have Focused Expertise, yeah?

If you only ever use them to do magic, then it won't make a difference. If you were sometimes clubbing people over the head with them, it would be of definate benefit. As I understand it, anyway.

[edit] Oh, and if you are dual weilding them, you can't really also be clubbing people with them, as staffs become Quarterstaffs when used as a weapon. Ie, one handed for magic, two for facebreaking.

[Decoy Lockbox]

I don't understand why you took Echoes of Thunder instead of Tempest Magic.
Also, why not take... Oh, what's the feat? Gives you expertise when you use it as a weapon or as an implement? Bugger... I shoulda taken that, too...

Tempest Magic gives a feat bonus, which doesn't stack with weapon focus (which also gives a feat bonus). I like weapon focus more because it is more general, and I don't want to only take lightning/thunder powers.

Echoes of thunder is an untyped bonus, which means it stacks with all others. Additionally, its used in the echoes of thunder + energy admixture: thunder combo. Imagine that I hit 4 targets with my burst 2 thunder admixtured blazing starfall. Then, until the end of the next turn I would get +8 untyped bonus to all my damage rolls. I didn't come up with this combo (see: WotC CO boards), but its pretty cool.

In terms of focused expertise, if you are only using a single implement you are correct that it is strictly better than implement expertise. However, due to the houserule my DM uses, the expertise applies to everything (since it was originally intended as a rules patch), and I only took staff implement expertise as a placeholder feat. If I was making this character for a non-houserules game, I would have taken focused expertise: dagger, since the staff is not wield-able as a weapon in one hand, only as an implement.