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  1. - Top - End - #1261
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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    My contribution to the discussion - how I interpret a twoshield army:

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Plus, those other weapons just aren't as phallic as a trusty sword.
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    Awwwww yeah.
    Interesting fact about that picture and the post it was offered to answer?

    That thing on his left hand is called the Shield-Claw. As well as protecting the wearer from damage, it contains grappling hooks and other tools as well as having fully functioning claws on the end of each finger.

    So there you go - a fictional hero who fights with his shield as a weapon (and actually causes damage, according to the comics if not the cartoon).
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  3. - Top - End - #1263
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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by Face Of Evil View Post
    "A Christmas beetle"?
    Aussie scarabs, basically. They come out in full force over summer, especially around Christmas (yay Southern hemisphere seasons) and graduation ceremonies. While the common ones are a bit drab there's plenty of brightly coloured ones, like Christmas decorations and graduation dress. The Black Nail Beetle is pretty close to the academic dress for Masters student at the university I attended, although now I think of it when (if?) I actually graduate my PhD dress would be as a Purple Christmas Beetle too.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    There's a reason a name for the genre is "sword and sorcery".

    The sword has a greater symbolic value than other weapons. A hammer, a cudgel, an axe or a spear were just as adept at killing. But they were simple weapons, easily made, cheap, available to the mass. A good sword was expensive, and a privilege of the nobility. Further, many weapons were also used for other tasks, such as hunting (spear and bow), or were barely different from a mundane tool (flail, axe and hammer). The sword was made only for military fight, no other use. It's a weapon of war, not a tool.

    So for these reasons the sword is cooler than the rest. It remained a symbol of status, authority and prestige. Today still, officers in many military corps worldwide have swords as part of their dress uniform.
    While a sword has *less* other usefulness, it still has some depending on your needs and type of sword. A sword is one way to hack through nasty brush/thorns/jungle (either for travel or to thin out so grazing animals can finish off), and useful for cutting up meat (eg can quickly quarter a sheep/goat)
    Last edited by multilis; 2009-11-16 at 06:40 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #1265
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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by multilis View Post
    While a sword has *less* other usefulness, it still has some depending on your needs and type of sword. A sword is one way to hack through nasty brush/thorns/jungle (either for travel or to thin out so grazing animals can finish off), and useful for cutting up meat (eg can quickly quarter a sheep/goat)
    You are confusing swords, machetes, and knives.

  6. - Top - End - #1266
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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by Phase View Post
    You are confusing swords, machetes, and knives.
    I am talking from personal experience. A 2 foot machete does not as wide an arc as desirable against thistles, and your hands are too close to the cutting area which means you get the occasional cut/thorn.

    Why do you think a sword wouldn't work? Cutting through animals and vegitation isn't that different than cutting through an enemy.

    Do you think the spanish dropped their swords and picked up a machette when doing these sorts of tasks while conquering in the new world?
    Last edited by multilis; 2009-11-16 at 06:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Even still, swords were first and foremost military technology. Many other weapons were crafted for other uses, then found use in battle. Swords were designed for combat.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by multilis View Post
    I am talking from personal experience. A 2 foot machete does not as wide an arc as desirable against thistles, and your hands are too close to the cutting area which means you get the occasional cut/thorn.

    Why do you think a sword wouldn't work? Cutting through animals and vegitation isn't that different than cutting through an enemy.

    Do you think the spanish dropped their swords and picked up a machette when doing these sorts of tasks while conquering in the new world?
    Yes, because they could stain their actual weapons.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by multilis View Post
    Why do you think a sword wouldn't work? Cutting through animals and vegitation isn't that different than cutting through an enemy.

    Do you think the spanish dropped their swords and picked up a machette when doing these sorts of tasks while conquering in the new world?
    Now you have me picturing someone using a Pretentious Fantasy Sword of Destiny for mundane tasks.

    "It is called Chirodin, Blade of Eternity! It was forged in the heart of the sun by the god Dathir, using the moon as a hammer and the corpse of Turtaris, Mother of All Dragons, as an anvil. No physical barrier can divert its blow, for it always goes exactly where its wielder wills it. So, as you can imagine, it cuts simply amazing flank steaks!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Edges do dull, y'know. Best to dull them on human flesh than tree branches.

    Anyway, my ignorant theory on why swords are so awesome is that they're relatively versatile. Spears are nice and all, but they do have a minimum range of sorts. Swords are sharp down the whole length. That, and they're relatively light, allowing for quick maneuvers.

    At any rate, I generally assume that if swords were so prevalent in real life, there's probably a good reason, and those reasons probably translate to fantasy worlds. You may want different weapons when fighting dragons, but human-on-human combat is still somewhat similar. Unless Magitech is inflated, in which case warfare looks like modern warfare only with magic instead of computers.
    Last edited by Frogwarrior; 2009-11-16 at 08:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogwarrior View Post
    Anyway, my ignorant theory on why swords are so awesome is that they're relatively versatile. Spears are nice and all, but they do have a minimum range of sorts. Swords are sharp down the whole length. That, and they're relatively light, allowing for quick maneuvers.
    I assume you mean spears have sort of fixed range, which is actually its maximum. And I agree. There's only one main ouchy part right at the end, so the main strategy is to point that part at anything dangerous and maybe jab at it until it hurts. If your enemy gets beyond the ouchy part, then unless you're in a martial arts flick and are prepared to go all Jackie Chan with some improv-staff fighting it's best to ditch the spear and go for a backup short sword or dagger. Spearmen are best en masse where as a group you can act like a sort of angry violent porcupine, but things tend to get ugly if you've got spearmen again spearmen (see Push of Pike in Wikipedia, it's basically a rugby scrum with sticks). It's not that great as a weapon for one-on-one heroic combat.

    Swords are cool because you can interesting athletic duels with them. It's called swordplay for a reason. There's a reason why Szark, Scarlatti and Donovan didn't face off with morning stars.

    That said, I'd like to see more skilful use of polearms in fantasy fiction, especially the more general purpose ones like a halberd where a skilled fighter could be more than a match in single combat against a swordsman.

    (Or at least I think they could. My knowledge of medieval combat comes almost entirely from Wikipedia and Medieval: Total War).
    Last edited by Trazoi; 2009-11-16 at 09:34 PM. Reason: So many typos... so many...

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Actually, when a person closes past the grip of a Spearman, the smart thing to do is back away. Drawing your Shortsword is just going to get you killed.

    A Swords advantage actually lies in the greater weight of the Weapon. An unarmored Spearman will almost always kill an Unarmored Swordsman. The Combination of Reach and speed is deadly.

    What a Sword does much better is break through armor. A Spear, unless a great deal of Force is place upon it, can be defeated by fairly rudimentary Armor. A Sword will go straight through it.

    There are a number of traditions where the skill involved in using the Spear reaches the level of Swordplay in Europe. They were areas where the Sword, and the Armor to make it effective were to difficult to forge.

    tl:dr
    Spears are quicker, and faster then Swords, but have more difficulty in piercing armor. The preference for Swords in Dark Ages Europe, and thus fantasy based on that period is a product of historical accident. Several other traditions have Spears existing coequal, or prefered to Swords.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Really? That's interesting to know, thanks. Most of the little I know about medieval combat comes from articles about warfare, where the rules are somewhat different from one-on-one duelling (it's hard to back away when you're in formation in the middle of a battle).

    What a Sword does much better is break through armor. A Spear, unless a great deal of Force is place upon it, can be defeated by fairly rudimentary Armor. A Sword will go straight through it.
    What types of armour does that apply to - leather, mail, plate? I thought swords became less useful against the heavier armours unless the knight was prone and you could attack between the plates. That was one of the situations where a heavy blunt weapon like a mace, hammer or pick would be useful.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Someone quoted once that a spear is a stick with a pointy end. Cut off the pointy end and all you have is a stick. And the longer the spear, as soon as someone's past the tip, you're in trouble and carrying something huge and useless.

    (Also, are we counting throwing spears here?)


    The point of a spear is to keep the enemy as far away as possible.
    Last edited by Silverblood; 2009-11-16 at 10:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    And to stop a charge. Nothing breaks your momentum like having five feet of wood pass through your abdomen.

    And if we're talking one-on-one, then trident-and-net is the only way.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    I seem to recall that it's actually quite difficult to cut the end off a spear: the wood's pretty thick, so you have a good chance of loosing the sword or making no impression. Plus, unlike when you cut wood, the spearman is not holding the spear steady, waiting for you to cut it, nor is the spear held on both ends.
    He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogwarrior View Post
    And if we're talking one-on-one, then trident-and-net is the only way.
    Sure, if you're a freaky fish guy who's too big a wuss to be a secutor. Everyone knows you're not a real gladiator without a gladius

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    While I have not studied the use of the Spear as much as I'd like to, in the martial art I practice, the training with Spears (Yari, in Japanese) involves a lot of situations when the attacker is already past the blade, in those situations (at least in this particular martial art) you usually either take your distance again, or just use the "Staff" part of the Spear if you're given the chance... there's also techniques for those situations when the attacker attemps to grab/pull the spear, wich ends with the attacker with a broken wrist, and some nice piercing damage.

    Also, there are many types of spears, designed for a lot of different purposes.
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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    If they close in enough that you can't use your spear, you're probably best off dropping the damn thing and either pulling out a small weapon like a shortsword or dagger if you have time, (IE, you were using a rather long spear) or better yet just fighting hand-to-hand. Chances are, if your opponent was able to get past your spear without you stabbing him, you don't stand much chance of getting away. The fact that you'd have to backpedal while holding a heavy spear and having a guy swinging his weapon at you doesn't really help either.

    That is, of course, unless you're really well trained in spear-usage, or to be more precise with quarterstaff-usage, and have a short-ish spear that you can use to fight just fine in close quarters. You can move that spear faster than he can move his heavy metal sword, and the wood should be thick enough that you can block his slow weapon anyways.

    You'll definitely always have some trouble with heavy armor, of course. Pole-axes and War-hammers were invented just to kill knights. Even a good heavy longsword isn't enough to do damage to someone in fullplate sometimes, which leads to the Greatsword, which is essentially a short, very heavy, fully metal spear that's sharp the whole way down.


    Edit: As for where I learned all I know about medieval warfare: No effing clue. Not in school, at any rate. I don't actually remember where I learned ANYTHING I know, though I assume a large volume of it was from watching the History and Discovery channels and later the Science channel (when the Discovery channel turned into REALITY TV CHANNEL. Mythbusters started it all, it seems like, but I forgive it because it's still the greatest show ever) and school. And probably a fair margin from when I read through the various history books in our school library as recreational reading.
    Last edited by AgentPaper; 2009-11-17 at 12:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    From an Exalted Astrology angle of this whole spear/swords conflict:

    The Spear is one of the signs of Battles. The spear represents organized conflict and military discipline, it represents the nameless, faceless brave and loyal soldier. It represents conflict with discipline.

    Conversely, the shield is the sign of the ecstatic warrior, also in the House of Battles, the barbarian who charges into battle, the glory-seeker, the one who seeks battle without regard for victory.

    The Sword is one of the signs of Endings, which brings the end of Hope. This is either through realizing those hopes, or being crushed by them. While the Spear, and Shield are instruments of Battle, crafted for war, the Sword is an instrument of the End, crafted for death. A spear's very nature is to seek out conflict. The sword's very nature is to end it.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    If they close in enough that you can't use your spear, you're probably best off dropping the damn thing and either pulling out a small weapon like a shortsword or dagger if you have time, (IE, you were using a rather long spear) or better yet just fighting hand-to-hand. Chances are, if your opponent was able to get past your spear without you stabbing him, you don't stand much chance of getting away. The fact that you'd have to backpedal while holding a heavy spear and having a guy swinging his weapon at you doesn't really help either.
    The time it would take for you to realize your enemy is past your spear, drop it and pull out a small weapon is more then that amount of time ti would take for them to stab you in the chest... That moment of time when your spear is dropped, and you go to pull out a small weapon you are completely unguarded, nothing more then a walking target... and your arms aren't exactly sword proof, so if your armor can't take much damage then you are likely to loose a hand

    The best thing for you to do is to step back and use the staff portion of the spear to guard yourself. The staff portion is strong enough to block a blade... After blocking the blade you either step back enough that you can stab them, or probably just smack them with the spear even if it's not the pointy end; if they're wearing a helmet or armor then it won't do much damage, but it may be enough to knock them off their balance and/or slow down their advance for you to take another step back and get into stabbing range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Khaine
    As for the Legolas scene, are you really going to say you can defend that one with a straight face? The only reason for it was that it was more than 5 min since Orlando Bloom had last shown off how great he was.
    You do recall how this all started right? i mean you're saying that Legolas doesn't count, but that Stonewater, a minor character, in minior webcomic, by a minor author DOES count... you get really picky in what you consider a "fantasy hero" but we got to remember that we are comparing them all to stonewater...


    also there's Link
    Last edited by slayerx; 2009-11-17 at 01:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by Trazoi View Post
    Sure, if you're a freaky fish guy who's too big a wuss to be a secutor. Everyone knows you're not a real gladiator without a gladius
    Psh, a good retiarius could kick a secutor's tail any day of the week. Don't be jealous because your need to play dress-up in 50 pounds of body armor to feel safe means you can't keep up with a REAL warrior.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogwarrior View Post
    Psh, a good retiarius could kick a secutor's tail any day of the week. Don't be jealous because your need to play dress-up in 50 pounds of body armor to feel safe means you can't keep up with a REAL warrior.
    Yeah, well when I'm appointed aedile in charge of the games I'll throw the retiarii up against evil mimes, and not only will the crowd back the mimes but they'll win, too.

    Yes, this has gotten silly, but hey, new comic!

    I wonder if Stonewater is rethinking his stance of "I'm such a hero I'm not kill anyone. Heck, I won't even bring a weapon".

    That said, I'm not sure how much of a difference those new weapons will be. I thought the Bikta sticks could slash, suggesting they had an edge. Now they're just spiked clubs. It's the Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion that will be the main problem now.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Heh. Phallic.

    Ahem... I'm not sure "poetic" is the word I'd use, for some reason...
    "Nothing can stop The Smooze."


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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by Webox View Post
    Ahem... I'm not sure "poetic" is the word I'd use, for some reason...
    Well, there's probably a decent limerick to be made of it.
    My pronouns are they/them.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Pro: Bikta Chief empowers his troops. It shows that his presence is more than just something to tackle once all the mooks are gone.

    Cons: That's like the crappiest empowerment ever. Your sharp and pointy sticks are now large and pointy clubs. How does that even work? His magical spell makes all pointy sticks in a mile radius expand at one end and grow spikes?


    I take comfort in the fact that there must have been at least one guy who had his stick to his chest or something -- perhaps clutching a wound bruise -- and suddenly found a big pointy club where his spleen should be. "DAMMIT, Chief! SOME WARNING WOULD BE NICE!"
    Last edited by The Linker; 2009-11-17 at 02:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    So, I guess they upgraded from pointy sticks to... spiky pointy sticks?

    As a side note, maybe Stonewaters forces aren't actually using arrows at all. Perhaps instead Maltak is populated by some sort of flying, bloodsucking animal. This animal occasionally (but rarely) attacks humans and orcs, exuding a local anesthetic so that victims only feel a small sting. It is never fatal to humans, who pull it out before it can cause serious blood loss, though many orcs lack the survival instinct to do so and perish to the creature. It mostly feeds on the recently dead, however, and seeks out battlefields and meetings between orcs and humans in order to find food.
    Last edited by spectralphoenix; 2009-11-17 at 04:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Well, the author admitted that the curved thing in the hands of a nearby Orc when Melna caught the arrow wasn't drawn like a bow. Maybe we all jumped to conclusions. The animal theory would explain why the "archers" either fired a warning shot at someone's face or attacked with one arrow.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Never fear. According the newspost it will be revealed how the Rhazgala can launch several volleys of arrows into a chaotic battlefield without killing anything. Apparently this makes them the finest archers in Maltak.

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    Default Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, MK XVIII - At the Mountains of Madness

    Quote Originally Posted by Trazoi View Post
    Never fear. According the newspost it will be revealed how the Rhazgala can launch several volleys of arrows into a chaotic battlefield without killing anything. Apparently this makes them the finest archers in Maltak.
    ...Weren't they already stated as being excellent archers?

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