What's so bad about Soulborn?

[Eldrys]

I've heard people trash the soulborn and I want to know what's so bad about it.

[Starbuck_II]

I've heard people trash the soulborn and I want to know what's so bad about it.

Well, it is full BAb which is good, but the book is about incarnum. They gets very little essentia to power any incarnum.

And the caster (Meldshaper) level to their chakra is 1/2 they level meaning they fail any SR or dispel checks.
Yes, incarnum can be dispeled (in fact you can dispel them with a new 2nd level spell in the book).

Next, they have Paladin syndrome. Smite evil is good. Few Smites/day is not.

Incarnum defense is good, but again like Pally after level 5 nothing new (other than poor acquisition of soulmelds and chakra binds).

[Sinfire Titan]

Let's see:

However, I would advise against doing this. From personal experience, the Soulborn itself can be outclassed by both of the other Meldshaper classes, and the Crusader alone does everything the Soulborn could dream of doing with the right feats. I have seen several people praising the class, but I for one see it as underpowered. There really is nothing it does that the other Meldshapers can't do better.

I've seen the potential for the class, and I am unimpressed. The hit to its Meldshaper level alone hinders its ability to use its Soulmelds as several of them offer saves (and thus need to bypass SR). While it may be able to take advantage of Shape Soulmeld, that feat isn't one they are able to select with their class bonus feats (as it itself isn't an Incarnum feat). This means they are spending something far more valuable than a bonus feat to do something another class all ready does (the Totemist alone takes the same advantages the Soulborn has, and does so without the alignment restrictions).

Its Smite feature is limited to 5-11 uses per day. What more, Smite doesn't affect a full-attack, something this class desperately needs to use just to keep up with other classes. Add in the poor support for it via PrCs and feats, and this class just gets the shaft. I can see someone trying to do a Charger build to play this class, but that is still out-shined by the Dungeoncrasher, the Lion Totemist, and even the Charging Smite builds.

1. The class' meldshaper level is 1/2 class level, not full. This is a problem as the Soulborn has the second most soulmelds that offer a saving throw, which means he needs to be rolling Spell Resistance a lot.
2. Pathetically low number of Chakra Binds, Soulmelds, and Essentia.
3. Lack of decent combat-oriented soulmelds for a combat-oriented base class.
4. Class features that are more or less useless in combat (seriously, Share Incarnum Protection?).
5. Poor alignment restrictions prevent effective multiclassing between this and the Incarnate, the obvious choice.
6. Unlike other meldshapers, this class is heavily reliant on the WBL chart. Its to the point that the class is unplayable without at least 80% of the WBL, whereas the Incarnate and Totemist are both viable with next to no WBL.

It gives off the same feeling that the CW Samurai does. It's out of place, ad the main attraction to the class (meldshaping) can be obtained through either a PrC or through the Shape Soulmeld feat.

Power-wise, it's on par with classes like the Divine Mind, the PHB Paladin, and the Soulknife. Everything, quite literally, it is capable of the Incarnate can do just as well. The Totemist flat-out rapes it in combat and out of combat, which is pathetic for a class that is supposed to be combat-oriented.

It isn't Truenamer bad, but it's pretty bad.

[Glimbur]

As often happens, WotC overvalued full BAB. The soulmeld list is anemic, the amount of essentia, soulmelds, and binds granted are all too small, and the class features are a random immunity and some smites. As a shameless plug, I have remixed the class to be stronger. I ought to make some more soulmelds for them...

[Starbuck_II]

As often happens, WotC overvalued full BAB. The soulmeld list is anemic, the amount of essentia, soulmelds, and binds granted are all too small, and the class features are a random immunity and some smites. As a shameless plug, I have remixed the class to be stronger. I ought to make some more soulmelds for them...

I like your version. I believe that it makes a good rewrite.

You fixed Smite issue.
Essentia issue (main issue).
And new Soulborn soulmelds is cool.

Really, fixing those issues without faster soulmeld acquisition might work as well. Make them gain tons of essentia starting at 1st, and end with more at 20th.
They could then at least power Essentia feats.

[Lycanthromancer]

Should've been named the Stillborn.

[Person_Man]

For what it's worth, here's my homebrew Soulborn fix.

Basically it just speeds up the soulmeld/Incarnum progression without stepping on the Totemist or Incarnate, and gives them a reason to stay in the class (bonus feats, improved Smiting abilty) as opposed to entering a PrC.

[Random832]

Well, it is full BAb which is good, but the book is about incarnum. They gets very little essentia to power any incarnum.

And the caster (Meldshaper) level to their chakra is 1/2 they level meaning they fail any SR or dispel checks.

Full BAB, low 'casting stuff' progression, half 'caster' level...

This smells a bit familiar - how is it worse than the same thing for magic or psionics?

I'm not familiar with the class, but what you said here basically seems to boil down to "exists and is not a full caster"

[Starbuck_II]

Full BAB, low 'casting stuff' progression, half 'caster' level...

This smells a bit familiar - how is it worse than the same thing for magic or psionics?

Same reason Hexblade is rated low on totem. Even the Hexblade designers admitted they made it weak on purpose due to over rating Full BAB.

[Mongoose87]

Next, they have Paladin syndrome. Smite evil is good. Few Smites/day is not.

You know what Smite mechanic I love? Pathfinder's Smite Evil. Now that's how you smite evil!

[Person_Man]

Full BAB, low 'casting stuff' progression, half 'caster' level...

This smells a bit familiar - how is it worse than the same thing for magic or psionics?

I'm not familiar with the class, but what you said here basically seems to boil down to "exists and is not a full caster"

In general, half casters tend to be in the middle-bottom of the pack in terms of power. Tier 4 or 5, depending on who's list you're working off of and the specifics of your build (for example, a Paladin with a dragon Special Mount, Sword of the Arcane Order, and Battle Blessing is a lot stronger then a core only Ranger). The RAW Soulborn is definitely towards the bottom (Tier 6) unless you use homebrew material.

It's progression is just ridiculously slow, and it's level 1-4 class abilities are far weaker then other full BAB classes. Even at level 20, it has a hard time keeping up with core-ish Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, and other "weak" melee builds.

[Sinfire Titan]

Full BAB, low 'casting stuff' progression, half 'caster' level...

This smells a bit familiar - how is it worse than the same thing for magic or psionics?

I'm not familiar with the class, but what you said here basically seems to boil down to "exists and is not a full caster"

There's a difference between a Full Caster and having Full Caster Level. A full caster ha 9t level spell access, while someone with full caster level gets to overcome SR easier, has longer durations on spells, etc.

BTW, nice Straw Man. It isn't just their progression that sucks, it's everything about the class, as I pointed out above.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Don't say strawman. Even when it's somewhat true, it tends to be a little bit of a strawman itself; and can unnecessarily provoke people.

This smells a bit familiar - how is it worse than the same thing for magic or psionics?

The same thing for magic is either the ranger or the paladin. These are good because they're in core. Consequently, they're well-supported, with many different options. Ranger is a nice archer, and does things that no other single-class can do. Paladin can be a nice charger, and again does things that no other single-class can easily do. Hexblade has a debuff shtick that it does well, and spellthief gets rogue skills. Duskblade/Bard are more than half-casters.

Soulborn isn't well-supported. It has materials in one book, and it barely uses the materials the whole book is about. Most importantly, you can do the same thing with an incarnate. And then some. When a supposedly non-melee class from the same book only can surpass you in melee, there's something wrong with the class. You can't be a ranger with a druid. You can't as easily be a paladin with a cleric. But you can be a soulborn and better as an incarnate, without extensive cheese (DMM).

"The same thing" for psionics barely exists. The Psychic Warrior is more than a half-manifester. The Lurk is more than a half-manifester and gets rogue skills. The Divine Mind is on the level of the Soulborn in ways the half-casters aren't. It's similarly unsupported (psionics), it's similarly unfocused (as opposed to archer/charger/debuffer half-casters), and it's similarly overshadowed by something in the same book. Because WotC inexplicably decided to give it medium BAB, the ardent blows it out of the water even more easily than the incarnate matches the soulborn.

[Starbuck_II]

"The same thing" for psionics barely exists. The Psychic Warrior is more than a half-manifester. The Lurk is more than a half-manifester and gets rogue skills. The Divine Mind is on the level of the Soulborn in ways the half-casters aren't. It's similarly unsupported (psionics), it's similarly unfocused (as opposed to archer/charger/debuffer half-casters), and it's similarly overshadowed by something in the same book. Because WotC inexplicably decided to give it medium BAB, the ardent blows it out of the water even more easily than the incarnate matches the soulborn.

Exactly, Bards like Psy warrs are 3/4th casters (6th level power/spells). warlocks are 3/th casters with at will abilties. Psy Rogues are also 3/4th casters (manifester same difference).

1/2 caster gets 4th level (technically should be 4.5 but eh). These are Hexblade, Divine Mind, Ranger, Paladin, Soulborn... are there any more?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Divine Mind technically gets like six, eventually. But its progression and manifester level (what Sinfire was talking about) are slow/low enough to pretty much be a half-manifester.

Spellthief is a half-caster, which I mentioned.

[Starbuck_II]

Wow, I never noticed that about Divine Mind: while still bad...better than I thought.