Hoar, Deity of Revenge in the Forgotten Realms

[realbombchu]

This thread may include spoilers for the Forgotten Realms, depending on how everyone replies and what your DM let you know about the Forgotten Realms when you started playing 4th edition. I don't think it will be a problem, but it's better to be safe, right?

Hoar, as he was described in Faiths and Pantheons, was one of my all time favorite Forgotten Realms deities. However, I'm not sure I like what they have done with him in the 4th edition. I mean that, too; I'm really not sure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he's still around. I guess it's some trouble I'm having with his new alignment and the situation he's gotten himself into. I'm not one of those players who is totally against the evil alignment, I just don't think it matches Hoar's story as a tortured and conflicted soul. Unaligned would have worked a little better, I think. But then, they couldn't have placed him where they did in the divine heirarchy. I don't know, so I'm curious what you all think, if anything, about Hoar in the 4th edition.

[Mando Knight]

Hoar's a deity of revenge. That, combined with the fact that Tyr's dead, means that he falls squarely under the reborn Bane's domain.

[realbombchu]

Hoar's a deity of revenge. That, combined with the fact that Tyr's dead, means that he falls squarely under the reborn Bane's domain.

You sure, though? I mean, I thought he was heading toward Shar's domain more than Bane's. I never liked Bane, though, so of course I would say that. And even if he wasn't heading toward Shar, Tyr may be dead, but "justice endures" (or whatever his sword says), so Hoar's dominion over poetic justice should at least be considered.

[Mando Knight]

You sure, though? I mean, I thought he was heading toward Shar's domain more than Bane's. I never liked Bane, though, so of course I would say that. And even if he wasn't heading toward Shar, Tyr may be dead, but "justice endures" (or whatever his sword says), so Hoar's dominion over poetic justice should at least be considered.

Shar's got nothing in her domains that make her a goddess of retribution, other than teaching hate over love. Bane is the god of Hatred and Tyranny, however, and Tyr's replacement Bahamut is only an Intermediate Deity right now. Also, his current rival Anhur (Mulhorandi deity of war, who absorbed Ramman's portfolio when Hoar killed him) is Good...

[herrhauptmann]

Have you read "Bloodwalk" it featured a ghostwalker follower of Hoar. (It also did a far better job of describing the powers of a ghostwalker than the book titled ghostwalker)

After reading bloodwalk, I can understand placing Hoar as a Neutral, neither lawful nor chaotic: Character was willing to murder established authorities who let people die due to inaction, as well as those who let people die to abuse of power.
Likewise, the ghostwalker states himself willing to abandon people in need if the path of justice calls him elsewhere.

So if refusing to be a good samaritan is an Evil act, then yes, Hoar might well be evil now. Not entirely sure I agree with him serving Bane though.

[BooNL]

Hoar was my favourite FR god as well, still is actually.

I've always wanted to play a Favoured Soul of Hoar, though haven't had the chance yet.

I liked that in 3.5 he was a pretty troubled god, with both good and evil trying to pull him over the edge. 4e making him evil sounds a bit silly, though understandable the way they moved the plot forward. Though I would say he should have been lawful neutral, especially in light of those events. He should be more focused than ever on his goals, retribution is not good or evil.

Same as St. Cuthbert being LN, he couldn't be any other way...

[realbombchu]

Hoar was my favourite FR god as well, still is actually.

I liked that in 3.5 he was a pretty troubled god, with both good and evil trying to pull him over the edge. 4e making him evil sounds a bit silly, though understandable the way they moved the plot forward. Though I would say he should have been lawful neutral, especially in light of those events. He should be more focused than ever on his goals, retribution is not good or evil.

Same as St. Cuthbert being LN, he couldn't be any other way...

Yeah, that's a lot like what I was trying to say, I'm just not very good at writing what I mean to say sometimes.

[realbombchu]

I'll have to read that novel now. Thanks for the tip!

[hamishspence]

Dragon Magazine article on St Cuthbert has St Cuthbert as LG with strong tendencies toward LN, and suggests that sages tend to get things wrong when they refer to him as LN with tendencies toward LN.

All that said, vengeance/retribution in the Realms, in 3.5, could be Good, Neutral, or Evil:

Good deity- Horus-Re
Neutral deity- Hoar
Evil deity- Kiaransalee

And there was an organization- the vengeance-takers of Imaskar, in Underdark, who could be of any alignment.

Making him Evil is mildly irritating, but not a complete stretch- it did say in 3.5 that he was being pulled both ways.

[realbombchu]

Also, his current rival Anhur (Mulhorandi deity of war, who absorbed Ramman's portfolio when Hoar killed him) is Good...

I thought Anhur vanished with the start of 4th edition (sorry, I should mark this as a 4th edition topic with memories of 3.5, or something). I could be wrong, though, it's been a while since I read the 4th edition list. More to the point, I suppose, Good vs. different kind of Good makes great story lines. So does Good vs. Unaligned. And in Anhur's case, he may have been the Good one, but stealing usually isn't considered Good. Hoar seems to be in the right in that case.

[bosssmiley]

Hoar, as he was described in Faiths and Pantheons, was one of my all time favorite Forgotten Realms deities. However, I'm not sure I like what they have done with him in the 4th edition. I mean that, too; I'm really not sure.
[...]
I just don't think it matches Hoar's story as a tortured and conflicted soul. Unaligned would have worked a little better, I think.

Is there nothing that the writers of 4E FR won't smear in excrement and fail? Making Horus (for it is he!) into a tortured emo seems a huge and pointless derailment. Horus is supposed to be the god who brings the wicked to justice and restores the rightful order of things: he's the John Wayne or Clint Eastwood of the Heliopolitan pantheon.

Simple solution: disregard the canon where it fails to meet your expectations.

[Zovc]

Sorry, but "Hoar, Deity of Revenge" made me think of the movie Teeth.

...or maybe I just think about that movie all the time?

[jguy]

Hoar is my favorite diety as well. Where is this information on Hoar in 4th Edition?

[realbombchu]

All of the information I know about Hoar in the 4th edition came from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, usually in bits and pieces under one of Bane's many pages. I would happily give you page numbers, but I don't have that book on me now. I can later, though. He does not appear in the Player's Guide because he's evil now, I think.

About Hoar being Horus, I thought Horus-Re was based on Horus. Hoar was an Untheric deity of another name before he joined the Faerunian pantheon, which means, if I...

[realbombchu]

remember right, that he is Mesopotamian or Persian in origin. Some say that the Forgotten Realms are a unique creation and not based on anything, but I don't think that's true.

[Optimystik]

Hoar:

Spoiler

Show

Horus:

Spoiler

Show

Not the same at all.

Concerning Hoar's shift in 4E, WotC's goal was to make the alignment system in that game simpler, for better or worse. Hoar may qualify as "worse."