The linear guild.

[Grifthin]

In my current campaign I have my PC's fleeing from a city after I framed them for a murder. I'm planning on having a powerful rival band of NPC's track them down. Is it fair to have the enemy NPC's be just as high level with equivelant loot or should I rather make them a level or two lower ? I don't want the encounter unwinnable, I do however want them to have a hard battle. The enemy group will consist of:

ENEMY GROUP - under DM control
2 Casters (wizards)
1 Cleric
2 Fighters
1 Rogue

VS

PLAYER CHARACTERS
1 Paladin
1 Cleric
1 necromancer
1 Wujen
2 Monks

Do you think my PC's would get owned by equivelant Characters/equipment or should I rather just make them less powerful ?

[Cyrion]

It's not so much the raw power or levels that will decide the contest(s), but how you play the bad guys. Given equal level and powers, a lot will depend on who has the advantage of planning- choosing the battle site, time for prep and buffing, etc. can determine the battle even if there's a large level discrepancy.

In power comparison, you've got two monks countered by a fighter and a rogue with the paladin perhaps offsetting another fighter. I'd give the advantage to the bad guys with the tipping point being how the arcane casters are played.

[Boci]

Giving the opposites NPC wealth should give your PCs a slight edge.

[Hazkali]

I would make them the same level, but remember that according to the DMG, that would make it one of the highest encounter rankings (as 1 NPC at the party's level is an "appropriate" encounter). So whatever happens, don't make the encounters 'to the death' unless you know the PCs can win it- have either the PCs or NPCs back down quickly if turn against them.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

A proactive party of like-levelled bad guys will be a tough challenge to a party - but it's not unfair.

Each character in the NPC team is essentially the standard CR for the party, adding their forces together doesn't make the NPC team too strong, so long as they are acting on their own.
An equal levelled party is basically a once-per-day style encounter - it'll use up most of the PCs' resources. If the NPCs are able to bring in outside help, or strike when the PCs are weakened through other encounters, the PCs will have a very tough time of it.

If you want to be sure that it's fair, have the NPCs split up to look for the PCs, and let one group bungle it so that the PCs figure out their being tracked - maybe the PCs get to smack up the reduced sub-party of the NPCs, thus evening out the fight.
If you weaken the NPCs a little, the fight becomes fairer, and you get to try being super-inventive and really play the smarts of those 2 wizards against the PCs without too much fear of a TPK.

[Cyrion]

Also remember that the DMG and MM CR ratings are roughly based on the iconic 4-member party. It's a shaky system at best, and 6-member dynamics blow it completely out of the water.

+1 to Hazkali's advice.

[Grifthin]

This is the current party setup:

A Gnome wizard, specialized in necromancy. PHB II only
A Gineasi Wujen - no idea, but seems to make things go boom.
A Full blood Orc Paladin of the Elves. (nasty bastard with insane Str and Con)
A Dwarf Cleric of Muradin.
2 Halfling Monks, one with levels in Drunken master.

The party is currently level 7. Very little in the way of magic items (due to campaign world). Every character has perhaps 1 item.

The party I was thinking of putting against them consists of:

2x Wizards. 1 Specialist abjurer, 1 Specialist Enchanter.
1x Fighter, Perhaps something with a Longsword + shield.
1x Fighter, Perhaps a figher focussing on finesse weapons, to trip etc.
1x Rogue, was thinking big burly half ork, can sneak attack, grapple wizards etc
1x Cleric, probably human

[DarthCyberWolf]

I would say be careful in giving the NPC party equal treasure because if the PCs do manage to defeat them, they've now almost doubled their amount of treasure.

[Zovc]

I would say be careful in giving the NPC party equal treasure because if the PCs do manage to defeat them, they've now almost doubled their amount of treasure.

The solution to this is giving them consumable items, and having them use as many as they can during and/or before the fight.

[root9125]

I would say be careful in giving the NPC party equal treasure because if the PCs do manage to defeat them, they've now almost doubled their amount of treasure.

They'll also be mostly dead, and up a level, so they deserve a good portion of the wealth.

[Random832]

The solution to this is giving them consumable items, and having them use as many as they can during and/or before the fight.

That's going to make the fight too hard - giving them PC wealth is bad enough, this makes it even worse.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Then use grafts, or cop-out the magic items to be biologically attuned or somesuch (drowcraft items that melt in sunlight are a good example of this)

[Grifthin]

Am I gonna be a horrible person for putting them up against Spells like Suggestion, Black tentacles, resillient sphere, Slow, Crushing Despair ?

Basically planning on having the enemy be prepped with Freedom of movement, Wizards with some mirror image etc. Then start off with using suggestion on the party orc, Sphere one of the mages, and counter spell anything the other does. Then the two fighters will use close in for the kill.

Then Sphere the second mage, and start using shatter to take out consumables (potion bottles) and then start hitting them with things like slow etc.

Party wipe immenent ? Or tone it down ?

[Quietus]

Am I gonna be a horrible person for putting them up against Spells like Suggestion, Black tentacles, resillient sphere, Slow, Crushing Despair ?

Basically planning on having the enemy be prepped with Freedom of movement, Wizards with some mirror image etc. Then start off with using suggestion on the party orc, Sphere one of the mages, and counter spell anything the other does. Then the two fighters will use close in for the kill.

Then Sphere the second mage, and start using shatter to take out consumables (potion bottles) and then start hitting them with things like slow etc.

Party wipe immenent ? Or tone it down ?

That doesn't sound too bad, actually. The sphere will be incredibly annoying for that one individual, if they don't have the means to get out, and two-on-one counterspelling will force the party's mage to be creative, and try to get spells which aren't likely for them to have the counters to. Spending actions casting Shatter to break up bottles and the like, while the PCs will find it devastating (psychologically at least - "THEY'RE WRECKING OUR STUFF!"), is far less troublesome than any save-or-die could be. The slow/black tentacles/etc stuff might be a little rough, I'd aim the enemy caster's most tricky spells at no higher than what your players generally use, or maybe a step above that if your players make some very quick headway as a "oh****" maneuver.

[BobVosh]

This is the current party setup:

A Gnome wizard, specialized in necromancy. PHB II only
A Gineasi Wujen - no idea, but seems to make things go boom.
A Full blood Orc Paladin of the Elves. (nasty bastard with insane Str and Con)
A Dwarf Cleric of Muradin.
2 Halfling Monks, one with levels in Drunken master.

More fun to go against the grain.
Human Dread Necromancer.
I don't know what a Gineasi is...so X Race Warmage
Hmm...An grey elf Duskblade trained by orcs.
Obviously need a druid here. Some race with a wisdom bonus that is very undwarven. Some elf variant exists, I'm sure.
A dwarven defender and a CW samurai. Lets fiinally settle this score.

What I suggest is less equipment, and have a partial encounter early. They do a skirmish against the scouts of the linear guild, who then retreat to the main body of the LG. You really should give the PCs a good look at a couple of them, possible quick take down, to make it fair. You should always have better tactics as you are one person.

[Grifthin]

The Gnome necromancer party is theirs Bobvosh.

[Gorbash]

Why two monks? They suck, they're not a match for any member of a party.

[Mercenary Pen]

Why two monks? They suck, they're not a match for any member of a party.

I think the monks are part of the PC party... which is why he later posted:

The party I was thinking of putting against them consists of:

2x Wizards. 1 Specialist abjurer, 1 Specialist Enchanter.
1x Fighter, Perhaps something with a Longsword + shield.
1x Fighter, Perhaps a figher focussing on finesse weapons, to trip etc.
1x Rogue, was thinking big burly half ork, can sneak attack, grapple wizards etc
1x Cleric, probably human

[Cyrion]

Am I gonna be a horrible person for putting them up against Spells like Suggestion, Black tentacles, resillient sphere, Slow, Crushing Despair ?

Basically planning on having the enemy be prepped with Freedom of movement, Wizards with some mirror image etc. Then start off with using suggestion on the party orc, Sphere one of the mages, and counter spell anything the other does. Then the two fighters will use close in for the kill.

Then Sphere the second mage, and start using shatter to take out consumables (potion bottles) and then start hitting them with things like slow etc.

Party wipe immenent ? Or tone it down ?

It really depends on the skill level of your players. I've had groups of players whom that would devastate, and I've had groups who would eat that for breakfast and come back for seconds. Again, a lot will depend on the party's prep level. If they've had the same kind of time to prep as the Linear Guild the fight will be much more even than if the Linear Guild attacks them flat-footed.

[Gorbash]

I think the monks are part of the PC party...

Oh... Too bad for the players then. :D

This is the current party setup:

A Gnome wizard, specialized in necromancy. PHB II only
A Gineasi Wujen - no idea, but seems to make things go boom.
A Full blood Orc Paladin of the Elves. (nasty bastard with insane Str and Con)
A Dwarf Cleric of Muradin.
2 Halfling Monks, one with levels in Drunken master.

First things first, it's Genasi and it's Moradin. :P

The party is currently level 7. Very little in the way of magic items (due to campaign world). Every character has perhaps 1 item.

The party I was thinking of putting against them consists of:

2x Wizards. 1 Specialist abjurer, 1 Specialist Enchanter.
1x Fighter, Perhaps something with a Longsword + shield.
1x Fighter, Perhaps a figher focussing on finesse weapons, to trip etc.
1x Rogue, was thinking big burly half ork, can sneak attack, grapple wizards etc
1x Cleric, probably human

Fighter with sword and board doesn't really have a purpose. He can't do damage, he can tank, technically... But PCs aren't stupid, if he's not a threat, he'll probably get ignored.

Rogue's aren't really made for grappling, even with good str score, their grapple suffers because of base attack bonus. If you want a grappler, make a Goliath barbarian. But at lvl 7 wizards have access to number of teleportation spells and if your PCs have them, it's not worth it focusing on grappling.

If you want a tripper fighter, Spiked Chain is the way to go.

Keep in mind that Suggestion won't make the orc attack the party... Perhaps convince him to drop weapons in order to fight honorably or something along those lines, but Paladins have good saves, so I don't know if it's even worth trying...

[The Glyphstone]

First things first, it's Genasi and it's Moradin. :P

What's wrong with a cleric of Muradin? Lawful Good Demigod, portfolio of Dwarves, Exploration, Ice, and Betrayals By Vengeance-Crazed Human Paladins?


For another way to make the fight interesting, you could have the NPCs not completely get along with each other - deliberately sub-optimal battle tactics based on internal rivalries, and if the PCs are getting the short end of the stick, they can start arguing about killing/capturing in the best 'Stupid Heroes' sense and give the PCs time to recover or take the advantage back.

[jiriku]

Rule of thumb: if you have to ask "would this be too much for my players to handle?" then deep down, you already know that it is.

Try down-leveling all the NPCs by one level. The casters will be significantly less likely to TPK your players without access to 4th level spells, and the combat will be much more satisfying for you, because you'll be able to pull out all the stops and use your best devilish tricks, instead of having to pull punches, play stupid, and use all the other oops-i-screwed-up tricks that DMs use when they realize they served up too much monster.

[Grifthin]

Thanks for the suggestions - I'm having the poor bastards suffer through the revised "Tuckers Kobolds" at the moment.