Breaking and Entering into Beholder Mage spellcasting

[Tokiko Mima]

It was pointed out on one of the threads last week that the Beholder Mage PrC probably has the best spellcasting progression ever. It's a 10 level fast progression PrC that get's 9th level spells drawn from the Sor/Wiz list.

What makes it interesting is it combines the best features of Sorcerer and Wizard all in one package: They get the spells/day, no spell book, and spontaneous casting of a sorcerer, along with the wizard's Intelligence focus and ability to memorize and add from scrolls/spellbooks to their spells known so the number of spells they can have is effectively limitless. In addition, they never use/pay material component costs, instead drawing from 1/5th that amount of XP when a spell would require an expensive component.

The way the requirements are worded, all that a true beholder needs to do to qualify is put out their central anti-magic eye. This means a beholder could take this class at level one. It also states that as the Beholder Mage gains levels, it surrenders the use of it's eye stalks to cast each new level of spells, so you probably need to have eyestalks to cast Beholder Mage spells.

Now here's the fun rules challenge. By RAW you can't play a beholder as a PC race, because their Level Adjustment is listed as - in the Monster Manual. You probably wouldn't want to anyway, since they have 11 levels of Aberration racial HD. Is there some other way to meet this classes requirements as a player character and steal this method of spellcasting? More of a theoretical exercise, because it's likely way OP'ed... what with being more powerful than a wizard and sorcerer and all.

There's a Beholder Crown I know about in Magic Item Compendium that you might he able to technically qualify as eyestalks, but I'm stuck with the putting out a central antimagic eye part. Any ideas?

[Starbuck_II]

It was pointed out on one of the threads last week that the Beholder Mage PrC probably has the best spellcasting progression ever. It's a 10 level fast progression PrC that get's 9th level spells drawn from the Sor/Wiz list.

What makes it interesting is it combines the best features of Sorcerer and Wizard all in one package: They get the spells/day, no spell book, and spontaneous casting of a sorcerer, along with the wizard's Intelligence focus and ability to memorize and add from scrolls/spellbooks to their spells known so the number of spells they can have is effectively limitless. In addition, they never use/pay material component costs, instead drawing from 1/5th that amount of XP when a spell would require an expensive component.

The way the requirements are worded, all that a true beholder needs to do to qualify is put out their central anti-magic eye. This means a beholder could take this class at level one. It also states that as the Beholder Mage gains levels, it surrenders the use of it's eye stalks to cast each new level of spells, so you probably need to have eyestalks to cast Beholder Mage spells.

Now here's the fun rules challenge. By RAW you can't play a beholder as a PC race, because their Level Adjustment is listed as - in the Monster Manual. You probably wouldn't want to anyway, since they have 11 levels of Aberration racial HD. Is there some other way to meet this classes requirements as a player character and steal this method of spellcasting? More of a theoretical exercise, because it's likely way OP'ed... what with being more powerful than a wizard and sorcerer and all.

There's a Beholder Crown I know about in Magic Item Compendium that you might he able to technically qualify as eyestalks, but I'm stuck with the putting out a central antimagic eye part. Any ideas?

Polymorph any Object casts twice.
The second time you are permanent because a beholder is extremely similar to a beholder.

[ex cathedra]

Polymorph Any Object?

[Jack_Simth]

The Telepathy Power True Mind Switch would do it. You need to find a suitable beholder, of course, and you either need to be a Psion(Telepath)-17, of course, or get a Power Stone of it and either have lots of ranks in UMD/UPD, or have it on your class list and make the check. You could also potentially get it in a Dorje or Psicrown. In a similar vein, with Mind Seed a copy of you could do so.

If you turn into a beholder (Polymorph Any Object, or any number of other methods, as stated), you could use the Metamorphic Transfer feat to pick up the ability so that you can lose it.

[Tokiko Mima]

Polymorph any Object casts twice.
The second time you are permanent because a beholder is extremely similar to a beholder.

Good! But don't you loose the spell-like special qualities of creatures you polymorph into?

Oh! I think I see what you're saying... since you'll be losing all the Su/Sp features of a beholder anyway, why not lose them immediately with polymorph. Nice!

[Thane of Fife]

Polymorph any Object casts twice.
The second time you are permanent because a beholder is extremely similar to a beholder.

I would dispute that interpretation: the spell states:

The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state.

Emphasis on "original."

[Starbuck_II]

I would dispute that interpretation: the spell states:



Emphasis on "original."

So isn't the new form your original state now being affected by the second PAO?

[jokey665]

So isn't the new form your original state now being affected by the second PAO?

No... your original form is your original form.

[Jack_Simth]

I would dispute that interpretation: the spell states:



Emphasis on "original."

Well, if that's your only problem, a single Polymorph Any Object can Permanently turn you into a Beholder if you're an Elan with an Int of 17 or better (Same Kingdom: Animal (+5 DF). Same Class: Aberration (+2 DF). Same or lower int: 17 (+2 DF) for +9 DF: Permanent Polymorph).

[Thane of Fife]

Well, if that's your only problem, a single Polymorph Any Object can Permanently turn you into a Beholder if you're an Elan with an Int of 17 or better (Same Kingdom: Animal (+5 DF). Same Class: Aberration (+2 DF). Same or lower int: 17 (+2 DF) for +9 DF: Permanent Polymorph).

I would dispute that Aberration is a Class - the examples given are "mammals, fungi, metals, etc."

Those are clearly not the same as types - bears and lizards are Animals, but of different class, while humans and bears are Humanoids and Animals respectively, but same class. And looking at Elan and Beholders, I think you'd be hard-pressed to call them the same class.

[Crafty Cultist]

I believe fiend folio has beholder grafts, including an antimagic eye graft

[Oslecamo]

Those are clearly not the same as types - bears and lizards are Animals, but of different class, while humans and bears are Humanoids and Animals respectively, but same class. And looking at Elan and Beholders, I think you'd be hard-pressed to call them the same class.

Also, in lords of madness is explained that aberrations are creatures just too alien to anything normaly known to mortals, yet most of the aberrations have very diferent origins.

Some formed naturaly and just hapened to go in a completely twisted way, others have existed before the known gods themselves, others come from galaxies/planes very very far away, and other still just shouldn't exist, like the mindflayers, wich aparently created themselves by traveling en masse from the future to the past, self-engineering their own species.

[Starbuck_II]

Also, in lords of madness is explained that aberrations are creatures just too alien to anything normaly known to mortals, yet most of the aberrations have very diferent origins.

Some formed naturaly and just hapened to go in a completely twisted way, others have existed before the known gods themselves, others come from galaxies/planes very very far away, and other still just shouldn't exist, like the mindflayers, wich aparently created themselves by traveling en masse from the future to the past, self-engineering their own species.

Actually Mind Flayers came from humans so technically same class different race (same genus).

[Oslecamo]

Actually Mind Flayers came from humans so technically same class different race (same genus).

Maybe humans were used as the basic block, but they've been changed so much that I really doubt you can still put them in the same class. Mindflayers don't have hair or mammary glands for one. They also need permanent moisture to stay alive. It's clear they have gone a long way from their human hosts.

[Akal Saris]

I would dispute that Aberration is a Class - the examples given are "mammals, fungi, metals, etc."

Those are clearly not the same as types - bears and lizards are Animals, but of different class, while humans and bears are Humanoids and Animals respectively, but same class. And looking at Elan and Beholders, I think you'd be hard-pressed to call them the same class.

That's largely the issue with PAO though - it tries to use RL terms to define a creature when the spell would be much better suited with in-game terms such as creature type and subtype.

I personally heavily dislike the PAO x2 trick, since even though I understand the technical mostly-rules-legality of the spell checking your current state, instantaneous duration, etc, it's something that is both so nebulous and powerful that nearly every experienced DM would house-rule without thinking twice. It's like the Wish spell - too easy a mark to really optimize, and too easy for any DM to simply say no.

Elan w/17 int, on the other hand, represents a significant investment for the character (race, intelligence, GP), and I think is more arguable, depending on whether you agree that it is the same "class", which I could see going either way. You'd probably still need Assume Supernatural Ability (SS) (which means 13 wis as well) or some other method to gain an actual functioning antimagic eye to put out as opposed to a "dead" eye. And Imp. Assume Sup. Ability (wis 17) unless you want a permanent -2 to skills, attacks, saves, and whatnot.

Do any beholder sub-races actually have an LA, even if it puts them in the ECL 15+ range?

[Myrmex]

There's a feat in the third party book, Bastards & Bloodlines, that lets you count as the member of any race for all purposes, called Old Blood. Now you just need a way to get eyestalks. The ones from Fiend Folio cost 200,000 gp a piece, though.

The most OP part of Beholder Mage is the casting 10 spells/round as a free action.

[Xenogears]

I would dispute that Aberration is a Class - the examples given are "mammals, fungi, metals, etc."

Those are clearly not the same as types - bears and lizards are Animals, but of different class, while humans and bears are Humanoids and Animals respectively, but same class. And looking at Elan and Beholders, I think you'd be hard-pressed to call them the same class.

Beholders are large sized right? So go for any large sized creature with an int of 17 then. +5 kingdom, +2 Same Int, +2 same Size. There +9.

[Prak]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...97468#msg97468

Beholder Folk playable race

problem is, no anti-magic eye (graft fixes that, though) and they have an ecl of 13...

[Eldan]

That's largely the issue with PAO though - it tries to use RL terms to define a creature when the spell would be much better suited with in-game terms such as creature type and subtype.

Yeah... I remember that horrible discussion we once had:
Are succubi mammals? They have hair and mammary glands, obviously. Does a Marilith count as a reptile?

I just said "no", and went on with the game.

[Gnorman]

Yeah... I remember that horrible discussion we once had:
Are succubi mammals? They have hair and mammary glands, obviously. Does a Marilith count as a reptile?

I just said "no", and went on with the game.

Linnaean taxonomy just doesn't work out in the planes.