[3.5] Pokemon

[vicente408]

I've already divided up all attacks based on whether they are listed as Physical or Special. Physicals will probably use Strength and/or Con and Special Attacks will probably use Charisma. Pokemon will also add their Charisma mod to damage when using a move of their same type (ex A Water Pokemon's Bubble deals more damage than a Normal Pokemon's). I'm thinking I'm going to probably base their power points off their Wisdom, but this might give Pokemon a bad case of MAD, similar to the D&D Monk.

As long as every pokemon has the same MAD, it should balance out, no? The problem with it only comes up when some classes need to spread out their abilities and others do not.

[Real Sorceror]

As long as every pokemon has the same MAD, it should balance out, no? The problem with it only comes up when some classes need to spread out their abilities and others do not.

Thats true, so it might not be so bad after all. A big problem so far is that a lot of unevolved Pokemon do not have high enough Wis and Cha to actually use 1st level techniques. This is especially bad in Pokemon like Caterpie and Ratatta who I think should have bad Charisma and stuff.
Thus far none of the first and second evolutions are really having a problem. Of course I expect players to start buying stat boosters like Iron and Calcium to boost their favorite team.

[Sir Shadow]

Hrm... I like what you're doing... but I just have some suggestions/concerns...

Why does bulbasaur only have 2 techs? why not just give them the full list?

To reflect how relevant abilities effect damage, why not change damage to dealing a more ability-dependent amount like 4d4+(relevant ability mod). From previous work on a similar project, I have to say that using lots of small dice is what you want to do for damage to keep the variability of the damage you'll deal very small. That's the best way to stay true to the games and how they do damage.

Also, it might be useful to think of the abilities in this way compared to the stats in game: HP = Con, Attack = Str, Spc Attack = Cha, and Speed = Dex. Int doesn't get anything, it's really not important for your pokemon to be intelligent so much as it is for the trainer to be intelligent. When a pokemon is caught roll 5d3 for Int. For legendaries, just give them a static score. Wisdom is used primarily to increase Will, and will is used to resist status affects like Paralysis or Poison.

Defense/Special Defense is difficult, but I'd suggest giving the pokemon "DR/(elemental type)" and/or "Resistance/(elemental type)" depending on their HD, and this will be different for all pokemon depending on how "defensive" or "special Defensive" they are in the game. Since it's DR against a certain elemental type it will better reflect super effectiveness by how it's able to overcome DR/Resistance. For types that are "not very effective", you can say that "DR/Resistance is considered doubled with a minimum of 1 damage being taken".

Overgrow looks good, but I'd suggest keeping it closer to the game. A true-to-game translation would be "The pokemon's grass-type attacks deal 1.5 damage when the user is below 1/3 their maximum HP"

Each level, have all the pokemon's abilities increase by a certain amount of dice. Nothing big, from a static 1 increase (pathetic), 1d2 (poor), 1d3 (average), 2d2 (good), or 3d2 (amazing); and just assign them to each pokemon's abilities when you create them. Like bulbasaur would have Poor Str, Poor Dex, Pathetic Con, (Int doesn't increase), Average Wis, and Average Cha.

Why not just give pokemon moves Uses/Day? They'd be able to spam them too much? Nah, you think a party is just going to stop and rest after each battle? Or are you expecting them to run into opponents less often? At that point, it's really up to the DM to keep it real.

I'd be interested in brainstorming with either of you guys or helping to a larger project in general... or if nothing I've suggested interests you at all, I may go out and make my own system...

[Real Sorceror]

Hrm... I like what you're doing... but I just have some suggestions/concerns...

Why does bulbasaur only have 2 techs? why not just give them the full list?

Its only level one and I don't want it to have all of its abilities from the get-go. My idea so far is for them to learn a new tech every odd numbered level. Besides, the starter Bulbasuar from the game only has Tackle when you first get it.

To reflect how relevant abilities effect damage, why not change damage to dealing a more ability-dependent amount like 4d4+(relevant ability mod). From previous work on a similar project, I have to say that using lots of small dice is what you want to do for damage to keep the variability of the damage you'll deal very small. That's the best way to stay true to the games and how they do damage.

That basically what I'll be doing. Absorb will deal more dice of damage based on its level, but will also deal additional damage equal to his Cha mod (aka his special attack).

Also, it might be useful to think of the abilities in this way compared to the stats in game: HP = Con, Attack = Str, Spc Attack = Cha, and Speed = Dex. Int doesn't get anything, it's really not important for your pokemon to be intelligent so much as it is for the trainer to be intelligent. When a pokemon is caught roll 5d3 for Int. For legendaries, just give them a static score. Wisdom is used primarily to increase Will, and will is used to resist status affects like Paralysis or Poison.

Way ahead of you there. The formula that MythMage developed is as follows:

Constitution = HP/5
Strength = Attack/5
Natural Armor = Defense/10
Charisma = Spec Attack/5
Wisdom = Spec Defense/5
Dexterity = Speed/5

I disagree with Int being 5d3. Anything above 10 is waaay too high for %80 of Pokemon out right now. I've been assigning Int scores on a case by case basis, usually ranging from 4-10. In d20, Paraysis and Poison are both resisted by Fortitude saves which run off Con. Wisdom only boosts Will saves, which would resist Confusion, Infatuation, and the like.

Defense/Special Defense is difficult, but I'd suggest giving the pokemon "DR/(elemental type)" and/or "Resistance/(elemental type)" depending on their HD, and this will be different for all pokemon depending on how "defensive" or "special Defensive" they are in the game. Since it's DR against a certain elemental type it will better reflect super effectiveness by how it's able to overcome DR/Resistance. For types that are "not very effective", you can say that "DR/Resistance is considered doubled with a minimum of 1 damage being taken".

Thus far I've been calculating super effective and ineffective attacks on a flat rate, with Super effective dealing x2 damage and not very effective attacks dealing half. Some abilities I've created do grant DR equal to the Pokemon's Con or Wis mod, though.

Overgrow looks good, but I'd suggest keeping it closer to the game. A true-to-game translation would be "The pokemon's grass-type attacks deal 1.5 damage when the user is below 1/3 their maximum HP"

I will be tweaking some things based on the needs of the game. Most of my stuff is still in the "alpha" stage, so its all subject to change. I still don't have any of the classes finished, most of the feats and skills are missing, and I've only partially stated the first 35 or so monsters.

Each level, have all the pokemon's abilities increase by a certain amount of dice. Nothing big, from a static 1 increase (pathetic), 1d2 (poor), 1d3 (average), 2d2 (good), or 3d2 (amazing); and just assign them to each pokemon's abilities when you create them. Like bulbasaur would have Poor Str, Poor Dex, Pathetic Con, (Int doesn't increase), Average Wis, and Average Cha.

I agree that something like that would be nice, but I haven't quite firgured out how I'll implement it yet. Notice the huge stat difference between the Bulba and Ivysaur builds? That gap needs to be closed a little, because if you advance a Bulbasuar up to that level using the normal +1 ability point every four levels, it'll still be pathetic compared to an Ivysaur.

Why not just give pokemon moves Uses/Day? They'd be able to spam them too much? Nah, you think a party is just going to stop and rest after each battle? Or are you expecting them to run into opponents less often? At that point, it's really up to the DM to keep it real.

I find that a power point pool gives the players a little more flexibility and requires less bookkeeping. I expect plenty of battles, but if you have a party of 3-4 players, each with 6 or more Pokemon, they aren't going to tire out very quickly.

I'd be interested in brainstorming with either of you guys or helping to a larger project in general... or if nothing I've suggested interests you at all, I may go out and make my own system...

Hey, I'm all for having a chat. If I develop this thing on my own I won't have anything to compare it to and it might end up with huge holes in it.

[Sir Shadow]

Constitution = HP/5
Strength = Attack/5
Natural Armor = Defense/10
Charisma = Spec Attack/5
Wisdom = Spec Defense/5
Dexterity = Speed/5

Hrm, I really don't like Natural Armor being defense and Wisdom being special defense. I had already thought of that when I suggested DR and Resistance. The reason behind it is that in Pokemon, Defense doesn't make you harder to hit like Natural Armor does. No matter how high your pokemon's defense is, attacks will always do at least one damage. I don't think anything should increase a pokemon's AC other than Dexterity and that can be offset by a pokemon with high Strength (higher attack bonus).

I disagree with Int being 5d3. Anything above 10 is waaay too high for %80 of Pokemon out right now. I've been assigning Int scores on a case by case basis, usually ranging from 4-10. In d20, Paraysis and Poison are both resisted by Fortitude saves which run off Con. Wisdom only boosts Will saves, which would resist Confusion, Infatuation, and the like.

how about 5d2 (5-10 Int) or 4d3 (4-12 Int). Since you and I both agree that intelligence isn't that important to the pokemon, I thought that a variability might be good for purely roleplaying purposes. Then again... now that I think about it. Maybe intelligence could be used for how well a pokemon can resist being captured? Then it would be best to give Legendaries static Int anyways like I says.

I agree that something like that would be nice, but I haven't quite firgured out how I'll implement it yet. Notice the huge stat difference between the Bulba and Ivysaur builds? That gap needs to be closed a little, because if you advance a Bulbasuar up to that level using the normal +1 ability point every four levels, it'll still be pathetic compared to an Ivysaur.

Well, the bonuses I mentioned would be added every level. Here's what I was thinking... I think that pokemon's levels should be equal to their levels in game. That way it can be a flat transfer, even moves could be given at the same levels. The only problem I see would be that higher level pokemon would have an extreme amount of HP. But I think that might be offset by the +(ability mod) to damage of attacks. To make sure it doesn't take forever to level, just increase pokemon's base CR to give an appropriate amount of XP.

I find that a power point pool gives the players a little more flexibility and requires less bookkeeping. I expect plenty of battles, but if you have a party of 3-4 players, each with 6 or more Pokemon, they aren't going to tire out very quickly.

True, now that I think about it, power point does sound good.

[Real Sorceror]

I apologize in advance for the monstrous size of my posts.

Hrm, I really don't like Natural Armor being defense and Wisdom being special defense. I had already thought of that when I suggested DR and Resistance. The reason behind it is that in Pokemon, Defense doesn't make you harder to hit like Natural Armor does. No matter how high your pokemon's defense is, attacks will always do at least one damage. I don't think anything should increase a pokemon's AC other than Dexterity and that can be offset by a pokemon with high Strength (higher attack bonus).

The problem with that is there aren't any magic items or things that will boost a mon's AC. So if they are just adding their Dex, pretty much all Pokemon will have an AC of 6-15, making them laughably easy to hit. Meanwhile, a Pokemon's accuracy would be increasing with its level due to its Base Attack Bonus + Strength mod + d20 roll. This means that pretty much all attacks will hit, all the time. Even a Pokemon who has been hit several times with an accuracy debuff like Sand Attack would still hit regularly. I'm basically trying to maintain the flavor and feel of the game, so I'm not overly concerned with maintaining every little detail. This also needs to be a d20 game, and if attacks are guaranteed to hit %90 of the time, theres really no reason to even roll a d20, which pretty much defeats the purpose of even making a d20 conversion in the first place.

how about 5d2 (5-10 Int) or 4d3 (4-12 Int). Since you and I both agree that intelligence isn't that important to the pokemon, I thought that a variability might be good for purely roleplaying purposes. Then again... now that I think about it. Maybe intelligence could be used for how well a pokemon can resist being captured? Then it would be best to give Legendaries static Int anyways like I says.

5d2 with a minimum of 4 sounds good for most Pokemon. For very humanoid types or Psychic types like Mr Mime or Hitmonlee, I'd probably just roll normally with 4d6. I would probably also give a +1 or +2 Int bonus when Pokemon evolve. But ya, Legendaries are basically NPCs, so they would have a predetermined Int.
I would probably use Charisma or maybe Wisdom to determine how hard a Pokemon is to capture since most Pokemon will have a positive mod in those scores but a negative mod in Intelligence. On the other hand, Trainers should use Int when making a check to capture Pokemon.

Well, the bonuses I mentioned would be added every level. Here's what I was thinking... I think that pokemon's levels should be equal to their levels in game. That way it can be a flat transfer, even moves could be given at the same levels. The only problem I see would be that higher level pokemon would have an extreme amount of HP. But I think that might be offset by the +(ability mod) to damage of attacks. To make sure it doesn't take forever to level, just increase pokemon's base CR to give an appropriate amount of XP. True, now that I think about it, power point does sound good.

Woah, hold up there, partner. Have you ever played a game at level 50? What about level 80? The HP would be huge, and like I said earlier, there aren't any magic items. That means that even at level 56, you aren't going to have very impressive ability scores (unless we do come up with a different ability score progression).
Also, remember that if you include their team, each player is pretty much running 7 characters. That will take forever to update every time you level and will only get worse and worse the higher level you are.
The way I'd prefer to do it is to have everything appear at half the level it appears in the game. So Charmeleon will evolve into Charizard at level 18 (instead of level 36). Most legendaries (and the Eilte Four) will then appear from level 20-30, with a few a little higher. This seems much more reasonable. Remember that, statistically, most d20 games never go past 15 level. Even if you are giving out more exp, theres no way players are going to get to level 50 unless they are extremely hardcore or meet more than once a week. Players aren't going to spend a 4 hour session grinding for exp. They'll spend a good portion of that time roleplaying with eachother and doing other things.
As for ability scores, there is a system already built into the game that determines how many points a Pokemon gets each level. I'm gonna see if I can figure how that works and then I'll try and convert it over to what I have.

[Sir Shadow]

The problem with that is there aren't any magic items or things that will boost a mon's AC...

Um, like I said, Dexterity would be increasing every level by 1 to 3d2 so it would also be incredibly big to scale along with the Attack Bonus. Also, if you look at the game, it's the moves, not the pokemon, that have an inherent chance to hit. Pokemon moves with 100% hit rate will always hit unless modified by an accuracy reducing skill. So it's perfectly feasible for pokemon to hit a majority of the time in the game.

I would probably use Charisma or maybe Wisdom to determine how hard a Pokemon is to capture since most Pokemon will have a positive mod in those scores but a negative mod in Intelligence. On the other hand, Trainers should use Int when making a check to capture Pokemon.

Hrm, I dunno, I was just trying to think of a way that Int could be implemented.

Woah, hold up there, partner. Have you ever played a game at level 50? What about level 80? The HP would be huge, and like I said earlier, there aren't any magic items. That means that even at level 56, you aren't going to have very impressive ability scores (unless we do come up with a different ability score progression).

:/ um.. what? Consider a pokemon with a "Pathetic" ability. By level 56 his score is going to at least be 56 + what he started with. Ability scores are going to be huge. HP might be huge, but when you're dealing a lot of dice worth of damage as well as + your ability mod, you're going to be doing a huge load of damage as well. For reference to how lots of damage and lots of HP scale together, take a look at BLEACH d20.

Even if you are giving out more exp, theres no way players are going to get to level 50 unless they are extremely hardcore or meet more than once a week.

I was actually thinking of decreasing the amount of XP needed to level and making more like (read: exactly) what it is in the actual pokemon game.

As for ability scores, there is a system already built into the game that determines how many points a Pokemon gets each level. I'm gonna see if I can figure how that works and then I'll try and convert it over to what I have.

well, the in-game way pokemon increase their stats won't translate over that well to d20. It's actually what I had in mind when I proposed the other way to increase abilities. I used bulbapedia and looking at the base stats window to see what they are good at etc. and then assigning pathetic/poor/etc to each stat.

Now for another thing... I would actually suggest limiting how many moves a pokemon has. Maybe forcing the trainer to choose 6 moves every time they summon the pokemon? because past that, the pokemon have an insane amount of options each turn, especially if TMs/HMs are brought into action.

[Real Sorceror]

Just so you know ahead of time, I think we might have very different goals for how a Pokemon game should look. I don’t really think you have bad ideas, its just not the direction I’m heading in.

Um, like I said, Dexterity would be increasing every level by 1 to 3d2 so it would also be incredibly big to scale along with the Attack Bonus. Also, if you look at the game, it's the moves, not the pokemon, that have an inherent chance to hit. Pokemon moves with 100% hit rate will always hit unless modified by an accuracy reducing skill. So it's perfectly feasible for pokemon to hit a majority of the time in the game.

That’s all well and good for a video game, but it doesn’t work well when brought over to a table-top game. I also don’t like the idea of their ability scores scaling that fast. Even with a bad progression, your version of Blastoise at level 50 would have a 50 Dexterity or better, meaning he can back-flip better than Spiderman. That just doesn’t seem right. Keep in mind that Pokemon is a Japanese game, and they like to have their numbers in the 100’s and 1000’s. Meanwhile D&D, being an American game, operates on a much smaller scale, making ability scores of 18 or 20 superhuman, so you would need to redefine what a score of 20 actually means. In the Pokemon video game, 20 is a very bad score, where in D&D 20 its very good.

Hrm, I dunno, I was just trying to think of a way that Int could be implemented.

Its cool. Int is still somewhat important to a Pokemon, like determining whether or not they can understand human speech and if they get any bonus skill points. I always saw the whole being captured thing as being determined by the Pokemon’s health or willpower, so Int didn’t seem right.

:/ um.. what? Consider a pokemon with a "Pathetic" ability. By level 56 his score is going to at least be 56 + what he started with. Ability scores are going to be huge. HP might be huge, but when you're dealing a lot of dice worth of damage as well as + your ability mod, you're going to be doing a huge load of damage as well. For reference to how lots of damage and lots of HP scale together, take a look at BLEACH d20.

Ya, we play the deities of our pantheon as player characters, so I’m familiar with what big abilities scores and lots of damage do. It kinda gets out of hand after a certain point. I’d really prefer to keep things as simple as possible. Allowing ability scores to skyrocket into the 70s and 80s means that Pokemon will be chucking mountains and aircraft carriers at eachother unless we adjust the rules for carrying capacity.
Also, do you plan on changing the rules for skill checks? A Balance or Climb check of around 100 allows you to stand on clouds or upside down on the ceiling. This is something that Pokemon probably shouldn’t be doing regardless of their level.

I was actually thinking of decreasing the amount of XP needed to level and making more like (read: exactly) what it is in the actual pokemon game.

I agree with that. I don’t know if I’d do it as fast as in the game, but I think the Pokemon (but not necessarily the human player characters) should level a little faster.

well, the in-game way pokemon increase their stats won't translate over that well to d20. It's actually what I had in mind when I proposed the other way to increase abilities. I used bulbapedia and looking at the base stats window to see what they are good at etc. and then assigning pathetic/poor/etc to each stat.

Ya, I’ve been using bulbapedia a lot as well. I’ll probably do something similar with the ability scores and see if I can work out a formula I like.

Now for another thing... I would actually suggest limiting how many moves a pokemon has. Maybe forcing the trainer to choose 6 moves every time they summon the pokemon? because past that, the pokemon have an insane amount of options each turn, especially if TMs/HMs are brought into action.

Agreed, but only for official matches. Like in a gym match or tournament, the trainer should choose what moves the mon is allowed to use (probably 4-6 moves). Out in the wild, though, they should pretty much be able to use anything they know.


Ps. Did we scare everybody off? I was hoping Bodez would pop back in at least, since he started the thread.
Also, in case you where interested, here is an earlier thread on a Pokemon d20 game Pokemon D20 a sister thread.

[Sila Prirode]

Ps. Did we scare everybody off? I was hoping Bodez would pop back in at least, since he started the thread.

Wow, nice setup for return you gave me here

I was visiting home from college for a few days, now I got back. Anyway, on to homebrew!
I like the idea of rolling stats each level, with regards to real Pokemon stats, but can I propose something different?
Real Sorceror, you mentioned that there is a big gap between Bulbasaur and Ivysaur powerwise, but there is a simple solution. In my game, Pokemon will evolve for the first time at level 6, then at level 11 a second time. If he doesn't not evolve on level 6, he gains a +2 on some stats, which will vary from Pokemon to Pokemon, they won't get upgrade on all stats (I will fine tune that in the end, when all the numbers are down, now it's just on concept phase). Then again, if they don't level at 7 or 8, another +1 on stats, and it continues in that way, every two levels. At level 12 and 16 it's again +2, on the other even levels it's +1.
Let me use an example, your Bulbasaur.
On level 1 he has Str 10 (+0), Con 10 (+0), Dex 9 (-1), Int 6 (-2), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 13 (+1), App 12 (+1).
On level 4 he gets a +1 to Dex, and then at level 8 on let's say Dex again.
So by level 8 he has Str 10 (+0), Con 10 (+0), Dex 11 (+0), Int 6 (-2), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 13 (+1), App 12 (+1).
Then, instead of evolving, he get's stat upgrade.
Str 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Dex 13 (+1), Int 8 (-1), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 13 (+1), App 12 (+1).
Compare this to your Ivysaur Str 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Dex 12 (+1), Int 8 (-1), Wis 16 (+3), Cha 16 (+3), App 12 (+1).
Bulba is only lacking in Wis and Cha this way, but at level 10 it actually gains a bit of edge, because his stats will look like this.
Str 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Dex 14 (+2), Int 8 (-1), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 14 (+2), App 12 (+1).
So, on level 10, Bulbasaur has only -1 on modifier on Wis and Cha, but a +1 on Dex. Also, on level 12 he will gain +2 on Str and Con again, making him a bit more physically durable then Ivy, but with less maneuvers per day. Which is fine in my book, if you don't evolve you learn to bit a bit of a tougher guy, with evolving you learn different techniques and tricks.
Hope this isn't to painful to read, it's just jumbled numbers all over the post

[Sir Shadow]

I'll respond to Sorc later (since I'm not technically supposed to be on the site) but I just had to respond to Bodec.

making him a bit more physically durable then Ivy, but with less maneuvers per day. Which is fine in my book, if you don't evolve you learn to bit a bit of a tougher guy, with evolving you learn different techniques and tricks.

In the pokemon game. Evolved pokemon are always stronger than lower level pokemon at any given level stat-wise. BUT unevolved pokemon learn Moves faster than evolved pokemon. Bodec, you've really really just got it backwards, at least if you're trying to stay true to the games at all.

[Sila Prirode]

But you have to consider that all Pokemon have the same table for learning moves, similar to warblade. We can give them more maneuvres known, but they won't be of higher level. That would be usefull on higher levels, but below 15 level is still subpar to having higher stats.
You have to keep in mind that this is Pokemon in 3.5 DnD, not Pokemon RPG in general, you can't have full conversion from game.

[Sir Shadow]

I think that, Sorc--correct me and I'm wrong--and I are going for a more flat-rate translation from game to d20. I don't think that all pokemon have the same table on learning moves. I think that they should all be unique to each pokemon (not specifically, but by species).

Also, a +1-+5 to Abilities don't do THAT much in the grand scheme of things when you think how Bulbasaur learns moves 1-5 levels before Ivysaur. And just think about it... it doesn't make SENSE for an unevlolved pokemon to have higher stats than an evolved one.

[Sir Shadow]

We can give them more maneuvers known, but they won't be of higher level.

And... what? they could be of equal level, and if the bulbasaur knows more moves (especially ones that do more damage) than the ivysaur of equal level, the Bulbasaur will most likely still have an advantage.

I agree that pokemon should get increase to their stats as they level, but between the evolved pokemon and the unevolved at the same level, the evolved should always have higher stats. If not, what's the point of evolving???

[Real Sorceror]

Wow, nice setup for return you gave me here

I was visiting home from college for a few days, now I got back. Anyway, on to homebrew!
I like the idea of rolling stats each level, with regards to real Pokemon stats, but can I propose something different?
Real Sorceror, you mentioned that there is a big gap between Bulbasaur and Ivysaur powerwise, but there is a simple solution. In my game, Pokemon will evolve for the first time at level 6, then at level 11 a second time. If he doesn't not evolve on level 6, he gains a +2 on some stats, which will vary from Pokemon to Pokemon, they won't get upgrade on all stats (I will fine tune that in the end, when all the numbers are down, now it's just on concept phase). Then again, if they don't level at 7 or 8, another +1 on stats, and it continues in that way, every two levels. At level 12 and 16 it's again +2, on the other even levels it's +1.
Let me use an example, your Bulbasaur.
[-summerized-]
So, on level 10, Bulbasaur has only -1 on modifier on Wis and Cha, but a +1 on Dex. Also, on level 12 he will gain +2 on Str and Con again, making him a bit more physically durable then Ivy, but with less maneuvers per day. Which is fine in my book, if you don't evolve you learn to bit a bit of a tougher guy, with evolving you learn different techniques and tricks.
Hope this isn't to painful to read, it's just jumbled numbers all over the post

As Shadow said, you kinda have it backwards. Bulbasaur is always going to be weaker unless it is significantly higher level. I also don’t know that I like the idea of any ‘mon gaining moves faster than others (unless of course they are learning them from TMs and such).
I’m cool with the fact that Ivysaur is stronger (that’s how its supposed to be), I just didn’t want the power gap to be so extreme. That way when the party hits levels 8-10 (when most mons evolve), it doesn't suddenly double in power. I think I can work that out, though.
As for the ability points every few levels, I’m still working on a formula for that. Probably it will be something like a +1 to poor stats, +2 to average, and +3 to good stats, probably every 4 levels. That’s the oversimplified version, though.

But you have to consider that all Pokemon have the same table for learning moves, similar to warblade. We can give them more maneuvres known, but they won't be of higher level. That would be usefull on higher levels, but below 15 level is still subpar to having higher stats.
You have to keep in mind that this is Pokemon in 3.5 DnD, not Pokemon RPG in general, you can't have full conversion from game.

Hold that thought, I’ll explain below so I can answer both posts.

I think that, Sorc--correct me and I'm wrong--and I are going for a more flat-rate translation from game to d20. I don't think that all pokemon have the same table on learning moves. I think that they should all be unique to each pokemon (not specifically, but by species).

I’m going for a happy medium, really. All monsters will have access to Normal moves (within reason) and moves of their type (again, within reason). For example, Doduo cannot learn Wing Attack or Mega Punch because it doesn’t have wings or even arms. It also can’t learn Transform, since that move is unique to Ditto. Basically, if it makes sense, then its ok. Doduo could also learn other types of moves from TMs or special training, but could never learn Electric attacks or other moves it is weak to.
I’m not too keen on each mon having a unique ability list. Remember, theres 500 of these buggers. I don’t want to cut too many corners, but I also don’t want the project to be a complete bear. It will be easier to limit them to a certain range of attacks based on their type rather than specific species.

[Sila Prirode]

I’m cool with the fact that Ivysaur is stronger (that’s how its supposed to be), I just didn’t want the power gap to be so extreme. That way when the party hits levels 8-10 (when most mons evolve), it doesn't suddenly double in power. I think I can work that out, though.

Well that is precisely the thing I offered to you right there. With the application of my tactic, your Ivysaur will have more Power Points and maneuvers, while still being exactly the same for endurance and strength. If you want you can tone down a bit the bonuses gained on stats, which is why I wrote that it's individual to all Pokemon, I just used Bulba as an example.

And for what Shadow wrote, I still stand by that it is to clumsy and cumbersome to have different tables for every Pokemon type, instead of just one for all of them. Especially when you consider that you would have to have different tables for Pokemon with different number of evolve stages.

And... what? they could be of equal level, and if the bulbasaur knows more moves (especially ones that do more damage) than the ivysaur of equal level, the Bulbasaur will most likely still have an advantage.

But that won't be moves that do more damage. That would be moves of smaller level. Consider this, if you have two moves that do weak damage, and one move that does much bigger damage, and you're up with a Pokemon who has one weak, and one strong move, which one has the advantage?
I'd go with neither, because they would both use they stronger move, which in the case of Bulba vs Ivysaur is the same one (let's say Vine Strike).
They would just be a little more versatile.
What you need to consider is that this is supposed to be balanced, and work for everything. For my game I would be very glad to offer one of the players who just loves his Charmander and won't evolve him anywhere, to have a chance of beating something, and not making him lose by default because he plays what he wants.

[Sir Shadow]

For my game I would be very glad to offer one of the players who just loves his Charmander and won't evolve him anywhere, to have a chance of beating something, and not making him lose by default because he plays what he wants.

... ok

Let's just for a second, go by what I'm saying, that unevolved pokemon learn moves faster but evolved pokemon have better stats. have a charmander and charmeleon fighting different bulbasaur, we'll say level 10 because that's nice and round.

A charmander with a flamethrower, let's say that does 1d6/level +Cha mod.
give him these theoretical stats (+2 to cha since we haven't chosen how to increase ability scores yet and we're just using basic every 4 HD). 10 Str, 9 Dex, 14 Cha. The other stats are unimportant.

So, with Flamethrower he's doing 10d6+2, again we haven't decided what we're using. But still he has a -1 to his BAB. let's just say he's a dragon and gets full BAB progression so he has +9 to hit with a ranged attack.

Let's say our Charmeleon just has Ember, simply for sake of argument that unevolved pokemon learn moves earlier, and it does 1d4/level + Cha mod. give him these theoretical stats, also adding +2 to cha, because this Charmeleon REALLY likes his special attack. 13 Str, 10 Dex, 16 Cha. (BTW, I'm using Sorc's system for figuring out the base stats.)

So Charmander has +9 to hit with 10d6+2 (37 average) damage
And Charmeleon has +10 to hit with 10d4+3 (28 average) damage.

Now, the Charmeleon might have a little more chance to hit, but he's doing a full 9 less damage on average, twice that when you consider super-effectiveness. I'd say there's no clear advantage, since Charmeleon will also have higher HP and defense than Charmander, but I think the tradoffs are rather on par.

Charmeleon will eventually learn Flamethrower, but Charmander will have already learned another ability that gives them an edge. Plus, if we're going by game experience necessities like I suggested, Charmander will also need less experience to level up.

[BooNL]

This looks like a pretty cool project. Both Bodez' and RealSorcerer's systems have managed to capture the spirit of the pokemon games.

I've seen games of M&M played, using the power system to create techniques, it works pretty well. Though I prefer 3.5 myself.

Following this thread with interest. Any chance of a pbp playtest?

[Sila Prirode]

A charmander with a flamethrower, let's say that does 1d6/level +Cha mod.
give him these theoretical stats (+2 to cha since we haven't chosen how to increase ability scores yet and we're just using basic every 4 HD). 10 Str, 9 Dex, 14 Cha. The other stats are unimportant.

So, with Flamethrower he's doing 10d6+2, again we haven't decided what we're using. But still he has a -1 to his BAB. let's just say he's a dragon and gets full BAB progression so he has +9 to hit with a ranged attack.

Let's say our Charmeleon just has Ember, simply for sake of argument that unevolved pokemon learn moves earlier, and it does 1d4/level + Cha mod. give him these theoretical stats, also adding +2 to cha, because this Charmeleon REALLY likes his special attack. 13 Str, 10 Dex, 16 Cha. (BTW, I'm using Sorc's system for figuring out the base stats.)

So Charmander has +9 to hit with 10d6+2 (37 average) damage
And Charmeleon has +10 to hit with 10d4+3 (28 average) damage.

Yes, that does stand as you typed (said? ) it. But I will repeat myself again, there won't be any faster learning of abilities. Using your example, with lvl 10 Charmander and Charmeleon the difference between them in my game would be that Charmeleon would have Flamethrower and Ember, while Charmander would have Flamethrower, Ember, and something like Tackle, or some other lower level attack.
That way Charmeleon would have a slight advantage (+1 to hit, +1 damage), but Charmander would be a little more verstaile (non-Fire attack, for dealing with Pokemon that are resistant to Fire).

Charmeleon will eventually learn Flamethrower, but Charmander will have already learned another ability that gives them an edge. Plus, if we're going by game experience necessities like I suggested, Charmander will also need less experience to level up.

I'm not really keen of bonus experience, it didn't work out with level adjustment, I'm afraid it won't work here either.

For the sake of argument, would you be content with the idea that unevolved Pokemon are a bit more versatile, while evolved Pokemon are stronger?
That is the idea I'm going by, I would like to hear your opinion on.

[BooNL]

For the sake of argument, would you be content with the idea that unevolved Pokemon are a bit more versatile, while evolved Pokemon are stronger?
That is the idea I'm going by, I would like to hear your opinion on.

To be honest, while it works in the original games, I don't think that translates well to d20.

Remember that in d20 you're supposed to get stronger as you level. Also, having to split a pokemon (say charmander) into three different stat blocks in case someone decides to level later is cumbersome. What I suggest is making evolutions pure stat changes. For example:

Charmander has a basic "class" progression with BaB, saves and maneuvres known.
At level 6 he evolves into Charmeleon and gets + to some ability scores (say +4 STR and CHA).
At level 12 he evolves into Charizard and again gets a couple of ability score bonusses and a new type (flying).

A pokemon can choose to postpone their evolution, but gain no bonusses from it.

[Sila Prirode]

Charmander has a basic "class" progression with BaB, saves and maneuvres known.
At level 6 he evolves into Charmeleon and gets + to some ability scores (say +4 STR and CHA).
At level 12 he evolves into Charizard and again gets a couple of ability score bonusses and a new type (flying).

Well it was always intended to work like that, with ability scores, and a few more perks (like Charizard gains flying like you mentioned).

[Real Sorceror]

Well it was always intended to work like that, with ability scores, and a few more perks (like Charizard gains flying like you mentioned).

How about this?
When a Pokemon reaches the level where it would evolve (level 9 in the case of Charmander) it can choose to either evolve or learn a new attack of a level it has access to.
A level 9 Charmeleon will still be stronger and it harder, but a level 9 Charmander will know one more 4th level technique. This process could then be repeated by postponing Charmeleon's evolution into Charizard at level 18.
That seems pretty simple to me and doesn't require all of them to have different progressions.

[Real Sorceror]

This looks like a pretty cool project. Both Bodez' and RealSorcerer's systems have managed to capture the spirit of the pokemon games.

I've seen games of M&M played, using the power system to create techniques, it works pretty well. Though I prefer 3.5 myself.

Following this thread with interest. Any chance of a pbp playtest?

Hey I appreciate the compliment. I've never DMed (or even played) a pbp, but I could try a few just to test the mechanics. I still haven't made much headway with the Human classes or with the Pokemon moves.
I now have Pokemon 1-51 (plus a few others) 90% done. If I get the time I'll try and concentrate on stating out what all the moves do.

[Sir Shadow]

Yea, if 5-6 pokemon's moves could be stated out, we could do test arenas...

[Sila Prirode]

When a Pokemon reaches the level where it would evolve (level 9 in the case of Charmander) it can choose to either evolve or learn a new attack of a level it has access to.
A level 9 Charmeleon will still be stronger and it harder, but a level 9 Charmander will know one more 4th level technique.

That is exactly what I had in mind. But I think would we better if instead they would gain a lower level power (1, 2, 3) and a boost to some stats (but still not enough to make them equal to evolved forms). That way the Charmeleon would still be stronger, but Charmander would have one more trick up his sleeve.

[Real Sorceror]

Yea, if 5-6 pokemon's moves could be stated out, we could do test arenas...

Hey, don't let me slow you down. You three bums feel free to start stating some attacks. And get working on those classes while you're at it.
But seriously, I'll get on it when I get the time. Unfortunately, Champions Online is having their Halloween Event right now, so I'll be a little preoccupied for the next few days.

[Sir Shadow]

:P completely understandable. I may have some time to work on it saturday. My job and school has been sucking away my creativity, I hate in-class essays.

Also, if I stat things up and then disappear for some reason, feel free to use anything without worrying about it. Just getting these things out of the way.

[BooNL]

Hey, don't let me slow you down. You three bums feel free to start stating some attacks. And get working on those classes while you're at it.
But seriously, I'll get on it when I get the time. Unfortunately, Champions Online is having their Halloween Event right now, so I'll be a little preoccupied for the next few days.

Well, if you put it that way. I just might do that .

Everything you've finished so far has been posted on the wiki right? I might be able to check out ToB later today and come up with some suitable moves for the 'mons.

Are the power levels of the moves akin to the power levels of ToB or is there another measuring unit for us?

Calling dibs on Ground and Water moves!

Also: arenas sound like fun!
Just let us know when you have enough material to work with.

[Real Sorceror]

Well, if you put it that way. I just might do that .

Everything you've finished so far has been posted on the wiki right? I might be able to check out ToB later today and come up with some suitable moves for the 'mons.

Are the power levels of the moves akin to the power levels of ToB or is there another measuring unit for us?

Calling dibs on Ground and Water moves!

Also: arenas sound like fun!
Just let us know when you have enough material to work with.

Yup, pretty much everything I've done so far is on the wiki except for a few mons that are only half done.
A good number of the moves can be found on the "Techniques" page. They are all sorted by level. Obviously anything listed as Physical should use a physical ability score for saves and whatnot, while the Special attacks should be based on mental stats.
The only real criteria is that the move should resemble the move from the game, although you are free to interpret range, area, and number of targets. For example, Flamethrower should probably be a line effect and require a Reflex save instead of an attack roll.
The overall strength of a move should fall somewhere between a martial maneuver and an arcane spell of the same level.

[BooNL]

I don't think I understand you powerpoint chart. It's divided in 4 sections, gaining points up to lvl 20.

Are you splitting PP usage among different attack types?

For example, should a lvl 3 nidoran have the following points to spend on attacks:
Physical: 1
Elemental: 7
Special: 8
Other: 0

Or is that the cost of the ability at the given level?

A bit of explanation on the wiki would be appreciated

[Real Sorceror]

I don't think I understand you powerpoint chart. It's divided in 4 sections, gaining points up to lvl 20.

Are you splitting PP usage among different attack types?

For example, should a lvl 3 nidoran have the following points to spend on attacks:
Physical: 1
Elemental: 7
Special: 8
Other: 0

Or is that the cost of the ability at the given level?

A bit of explanation on the wiki would be appreciated

The power point chart is much like the one from Unearthed Arcana. A Pokemon gains a pool of pp based on its level (1st-20th) and then gains bonus pp based on its Wisdom modifier.
Originally, Black Dragon had the 17 types of Pokemon split into three categories that gained pp at a different rate. Fighting, Normal, Flying etc all gained pp using the Physical column, while Fire, Water, etc use the Elemental and Psychic and whatnot use the special.
I haven't decided if I like that or not and I may just have all mons gain pp at the same rate (probably using the Elemental column).

The cost of each move is equal to the move's level x2, then subtract 1. So something like this:

1st lvl = 1pp
2md = 3pp
3rd = 5pp
4th = 7pp
.......
9th = 17pp

Basically I don't have a complete explanation on the site yet because I haven't decided how I'd like the pp progression to go yet.