Monk-Swordsage CA problem

**Animato** · 2009-10-22, 06:25 AM (ISO 8601)

[I failed to find a thread on this, please if there's one give me the link.]

I have a little question, perhaps the collective mind of you guys can answer me.
Swordsages have a WIS bonus to AC from 2nd level and monks too have the same bonus,(with an extra) but if I want a Monk 5°/Swordsage 5°?
It gets 2xWIS to AC? I strongly doubt it...
There's an official clarification?

Thank you for any help.

**BobVosh** · 2009-10-22, 06:30 AM (ISO 8601)

It has been posted a few times. The problem is SS is in light armor. Monk is in no armor. Many debates, but RAW is no.

*edit* Not ninjaed? I guess they are looking up links.

**AslanCross** · 2009-10-22, 06:33 AM (ISO 8601)

If you read it carefully, actually---Monk's AC bonus applies only when you're unarmored. Swordsage's applies only when you're in "light armor, unencumbered, and don't use a shield" and doesn't have the "or no armor" qualifier.

By RAW at least, they cannot exist at the same time.

Unfortunately the errata WOTC published for Tome of Battle was strangled at birth and they never bothered to fix it.

Edit: Darnit I got Swordsaged. (Because they can ninja better than ninjas)

**Fluffles** · 2009-10-22, 07:03 AM (ISO 8601)

I think it does if you take the Unarmed swordsage ACF.

**Teron** · 2009-10-22, 07:16 AM (ISO 8601)

By RAW, the unarmed swordsage variant still gets Wisdom to AC when wearing light armour, even though it loses the proficiency for it. It's such an obvious and easily corrected error, though, that it really just serves as a jackass DM warning.

**kamikasei** · 2009-10-22, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)

Given the editing and errata woes ToB suffered, I think it's reasonable to say that most or at least many people would treat the swordsage's AC bonus as applying when in light or no armor, even if that's not RAW. Given that assumption, which seems to hold for the OP, what about his larger question, which is whether (assuming both are applicable) they stack?

**Animato** · 2009-10-22, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)

I haven't understood everything, because of my poor language understanding I think, but the part on different armors it's clear for me.

What I was saying regard the ''sameness'' of this class feauture it's about concept, in many ways.
A DM that look at the rules in the way they're intended sees clearly that a WIS bonus to AC represents the PG aptitude to fight wisely and so avoid being harmed.
That will lead to the interpretation that, if the Swordsage text says it can have the bonus with a light armor on, surely without the hyndrance of it he can too. They only forgotten the little words "or no armor".

But my problem, regardless of this, remains. A monk is a wise fighter, as in kung-fu movies is the little-old-long-mustached-smiling-sensei, the swordsage too. A monk that is also a swordsage must add double the WIS to AC of one that focuses only on one of this point of views on combat?
I think he mustn't.
But I wanted the opinion of some other people as a feedback and to know if WOTC was helping.(this last point it's satisfied)

[To be more clear: If the WIS bonuses doesn't stacks I'm going to rule that Swordsage's bonus partially overlaps that of the Monk. So in light armor a Monk/Swordsage has +WIS to CA, in no armor it has +WIS +the monk level dependant bonus.
But if it stacks its exaggerate...]

**Longcat** · 2009-10-22, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)

With all the dubious RAW, I can only argue with (IMHO) RAI:
-SS AC Bonus applies if you're not wearing anything heavier than light armor (or use a shield)
-SS AC Bonus stacks with Monk AC Bonus. Otherwise, why bother with monk, if you could have light armor instead?

**Tiki Snakes** · 2009-10-22, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)

Personally, I'd argue that it shouldn't stack, because they are giving you the exact same thing. SS says AC + wis. Monk says AC + wis.
So you get AC + wis. :)

Not that this stance comes from any kind of rules perspective, mind. I'd say that depending on what other bonuses each version gets, you simply use the version that's better at any given point.

But I wouldn't be suprised if the answer that is closer to RAW turned out to be Double-wise. Rules can be silly like that.

**Prime32** · 2009-10-22, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Personally, I'd argue that it shouldn't stack, because they are giving you the exact same thing. SS says AC + wis. Monk says AC + wis.
So you get AC + wis. :)

Not that this stance comes from any kind of rules perspective, mind. I'd say that depending on what other bonuses each version gets, you simply use the version that's better at any given point.

But I wouldn't be suprised if the answer that is closer to RAW turned out to be Double-wise. Rules can be silly like that.

Assuming both work while unarmoured, you still don't add Wis twice - it counts as the same ability, so you only get it once.

**Stegyre** · 2009-10-22, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Animato

Swordsages have a WIS bonus to AC from 2nd level and monks too have the same bonus,(with an extra) but if I want a Monk 5°/Swordsage 5°?
It gets 2xWIS to AC? I strongly doubt it...
There's an official clarification?

The FAQ addressed the issue as follows:

Originally Posted by FAQ, p. 9

Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk,
swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.

FAQ

(Note that the FAQ does not rely upon the RAW distinction "requiring" an SS to wear light armor. As that distinction would have disposed of at least part of the question before ever reaching the bonsu-stacking issue, it is evidence that the light-armor-as-a-minimum-requirement (for SS) was not intended.)

The FAQ accords with the default rule on modifier stacking:

Originally Posted by SRD

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Note the bolded conjunction "AND": bonuses from the same source, even if untyped, do not stack.

What qualifies as "same source" may be debated: is the source the class feature or the attribute modifier? The FAQ response indicates the latter.

**AstralFire** · 2009-10-22, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)

All that said, double Wis to AC for a monk/swordsage is not going to break anything, though I would rule that it doesn't stack, myself.

**Godskook** · 2009-10-22, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)

Grab Kung-fu Genius when you enter monk. Now you have +int+wis to AC.

**AstralFire** · 2009-10-22, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Godskook

Grab Kung-fu Genius when you enter monk. Now you have +int+wis to AC.

That causes more problems than it solves unless you had some insane rolls or your DM meant to write '8' for Point Buy and she accidentally wrote it sideways.

**Stegyre** · 2009-10-22, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by AstralFire

That causes more problems than it solves unless you had some insane rolls or your DM meant to write '8' for Point Buy and she accidentally wrote it sideways.

You have just convinced me to change my default reading mode from "portrait" to "landscape."

**AstralFire** · 2009-10-22, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)

Well, I always do encourage people to look at things from a different angle...

**jiriku** · 2009-10-22, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)

Disregarding the FAQ and venturing into the realm of house rules for a moment...

Level 10 Swordsage in a chain shirt+2 with (say) Dex 16 Wis 18 has AC 23.
Level 10 Monk with Dex 16 Wis 18 has AC 19.
Level 10 unarmed swordsage with Dex 16 Wis 18 has AC 17.
5/5 USS/Monk with Dex 16 Wis 18 has AC 21.

Permitting the two to stack still produces a character whose AC is poorer than than the basic swordsage. If the player in question is a hardcore optimizer, stick with a conservative reading of the rules and make him work hard for his awesomeness. But if it's just a casual player, cut him a little slack to make sure he doesn't accidently build a character that sucks and ruin his own fun.

Edit: If YOU are the player, and you are not a hardcore optimizer, petition the DM for a little houserule loving. If he says no, then oh well.

**Person_Man** · 2009-10-22, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)

The below excerpt from the X to Y thread might be helpful:

AC

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]Attribute | Name | Type | Book |

Page #

|

Edition

105

|

3.5

57

|

3.0

80

|

3.5

73

|

3.5

17

|

3.5

| AC | Limited by class level
Intelligence | Duelist 1 | PrC | DMG |

185

|

3.5

110

|

3.5

14

|

3.5

14

|

3.5

41

|

3.0

44

|

3.5

231

|

3.0

23

|

3.5

86

|

3.5

28

|

3.5

?

|

3.5

185

|

3.5

104

|

3.0

231

|

3.0

39

|

3.5

55

|

3.5

5

|

3.5

16

|

3.5

144

|

3.5

248

|

3.5

84

|

3.5

12

|

3.5

88

|

3.5

310

|

3.5

197

|

3.5

75

|

3.5

156

|

3.5

NA

|

3.0

26

|

3.5

39

|

3.5

54

|

3.5

35

|

3.5

48

|

3.5

68

|

3.5

?

|

3.5

105

|

3.5

28

|

3.0

106

|

3.5

191

|

3.5

29

|

3.5

| Touch AC | cannot exceed normal AC
[/table]

You could take the ridiculously powerful Saint template and a few levels of Monk or Swordsage. Swordsage or Monk/Mantis Mercenary 5 would let you get it against 1 target. Cleric/Swordsage or Monk with the Balance domain could get it once per day. But there's really no "reasonable" way to get it, barring rules shenanigans. You're much better off with Constitution (Deepwarden, Fist of the Forest) or Charisma (Divine Shield, Mystic Wanderer, Arcane Duelist, Sirine's Grace).

**Kylarra** · 2009-10-22, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by jiriku

Disregarding the FAQ and venturing into the realm of house rules for a moment...

Level 10 Swordsage in a chain shirt+2 with (say) Dex 16 Wis 18 has AC 23.
Level 10 Monk with Dex 16 Wis 18 has AC 19.
Level 10 unarmed swordsage with Dex 16 Wis 18 has AC 17.
5/5 USS/Monk with Dex 16 Wis 18 has AC 21.

Permitting the two to stack still produces a character whose AC is poorer than than the basic swordsage. If the player in question is a hardcore optimizer, stick with a conservative reading of the rules and make him work hard for his awesomeness. But if it's just a casual player, cut him a little slack to make sure he doesn't accidently build a character that sucks and ruin his own fun.

It's worth pointing out that that a +2 wisdom item costs less than a +2 chain shirt and conveniently the +2 AC provided by that +2 enchantment is what's putting your normal sword sage over the doubled up swordsage, also conveniently a +2 wis item would give +2 AC for less cost to your doubled up swordsage.

Please be fair and accurate when trying to present numbers to support your case. :)

**Animato** · 2009-10-22, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)

Argh!!!
What's all this advice for optimization? It's totaly OT.
By the way I'm the master and I'm not tender with players searching the best combo and with munchkinism, what's on the sheet it's reflective of the background, the campaign events etc. I even had given special prizes for taking completely useless feats wich give great flavour to the PG...

My problem anyway is solved, the 3d can be closed and thanks to everyone.

**Blackfang108** · 2009-10-22, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Kylarra

It's worth pointing out that that a +2 wisdom item costs less than a +2 chain shirt and conveniently the +2 AC provided by that +2 enchantment is what's putting your normal sword sage over the doubled up swordsage, also conveniently a +2 wis item would give +2 AC for less cost to your doubled up swordsage.

Please be fair and accurate when trying to present numbers to support your case. :)

+2 WIS gives +1 AC not +2.

Remember how the stats work, each +2 add +1 to the modifier. So a +2 Peripat of WIS will only add +1 to AC. the +4 WIS item is considerably more expensive.

EDIT: Looks at OP's above post.

CALM. DOWN. Seriously, there's nothing to get upset about.

**Kylarra** · 2009-10-22, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Blackfang108

+2 WIS gives +1 AC not +2.

Remember how the stats work, each +2 add +1 to the modifier. So a +2 Peripat of WIS will only add +1 to AC. the +4 WIS item is considerably more expensive.

Look at what we're talking about. Swordsage and Monk AC Bonus ability stacking. Thus a +1 modifier added to AC twice is +2.

**Godskook** · 2009-10-22, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Animato

Argh!!!
What's all this advice for optimization? It's totaly OT.

Eh, personally, I assume that any RAW question is an effort to find a way of benefiting from a particular combination that would otherwise be non-useful.

@AstralFire

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I'm curious, how would that cause problems? Most likely, it is a 2 level dip in monk, providing a bonus to AC that you'd otherwise not have.

**Kylarra** · 2009-10-22, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Godskook

@AstralFire

Spoiler

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I'm curious, how would that cause problems? Most likely, it is a 2 level dip in monk, providing a bonus to AC that you'd otherwise not have.

Spoiler

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Kung-fu Genius and its slightly better compatriot Carmendine monk are usually taken to reduce MAD, by burning a feat on them, you're increasing the MAD of the monk by making them require a higher int to make decent use of the feat.

**AstralFire** · 2009-10-22, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Godskook

@AstralFire

Spoiler

Show

I'm curious, how would that cause problems? Most likely, it is a 2 level dip in monk, providing a bonus to AC that you'd otherwise not have.

Because you've just introduced MAD into your build. Your Swordsage is now looking to improve Dex, Wis and now Int while maintaining a decent Str and Con. This is only one step better than Monk, which is Dex, Wis, Str, Con, Int.

**Foryn Gilnith** · 2009-10-22, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Teron

By RAW, the unarmed swordsage variant still gets Wisdom to AC when wearing light armour, even though it loses the proficiency for it.

Leather armor. Masterwork Studded Leather Armor. Mithral Chain. None of these invalidate the unarmed damage that the unarmed swordsage gets, as per the wording of the monk ability.

Originally Posted by Blackfang108

CALM. DOWN. Seriously, there's nothing to get upset about.

Amusing faux-anger.

**jiriku** · 2009-10-22, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Kylarra

It's worth pointing out that that a +2 wisdom item costs less than a +2 chain shirt and conveniently the +2 AC provided by that +2 enchantment is what's putting your normal sword sage over the doubled up swordsage, also conveniently a +2 wis item would give +2 AC for less cost to your doubled up swordsage.

Please be fair and accurate when trying to present numbers to support your case. :)

Apologies for the confusion. I was assuming in my example (but did not include in my post!) that the characters in question had a 16 base Wis and +2 enhancement bonus item. PCs in games I run or play in rarely have natural 18's in their secondary stat, and I see Str as the prime stat for all these builds.

Also, even given an additional +4 Wisdom to all builds, the multi-class monk would still be par for AC with the vanilla swordsage, so I feel the original point stands: it would be charitable (and not unbalanced) for the OP to allow the two to stack, via RAI or houserule or however.

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