So, Wu Jen.

[Optimystik]

I've been reading up on this class in CA and it seems to be an interesting alternative to the Wizard. I know it's not as powerful due to the limited spell list (and it doesn't even get the Beguiler's "hey-I-learned-a-spell-from-your-list!" ability) but the advantages seem to be good nonetheless. For those not familiar with the class, I'll make a brief list:

1. Plenty of the better wizard spells (The teleport line, polymorph line, gate, time stop, wish etc.) Maybe she doesn't need the Beguiler's ability?
2. Free metamagic feat at level 1 (although you probably won't be using metamagic that early )
3. Spell secrets let you permanently and automatically add a free metamagic from the following list to any spell 3rd level - Enlarge, Extend, Still, Silent. Having an always-on Still+Silent Teleport can be useful if you get tied up and gagged somewhere.
4. ALL the knowledge skills - Coupled with your int bonus, you can be the party loremaster even more easily than a wizard.
5. Can reroll initiative once per day - handy.
6. Prepares spells, so can qualify for nice PrCs that require prepared (e.g. wizard or archivist) casting.
7. Starts with all their cantrips like wizards do (yay prestidigitation!)

And then, there are the disadvantages.

1. More limited spell selection than a pure wizard.
2. Less bonus Metamagic feats.
3. Not as many PrCs open to them (I don't know offhand which ones, though.)
4. The taboos, which basically say "the DM gets to screw with you"; at least that's what they say to me.

Now that I covered the basics, I wanted to know:

1. Is there a Wu Jen guide/handbook somewhere I can look through?
2. For those of you that played the class, which taboos did you pick to minimize the chance of getting messed with by the DM? (I thought of "cannot sit without crossing legs" as I'd have less a chance of violating that one by accident, but I'm sure some of you have come up with better ones.)
3. Which element is the best one to specialize in?
4. What is your overall opinion of the class?

Thanks in advance for any replies

[The Rose Dragon]

You're missing something crucial.

Teleport doesn't have any somatic components.

So basically, you only need to add Silent Spell to it to make it a merely mental action.

[Cyclocone]

You might want to look at CMag as well, the Wu Jen gets some lovin' there too.
Especially the Elemental Adept feat for spontaneous Telekinesis; cue Jean Grey.

[Optimystik]

You're missing something crucial.

Teleport doesn't have any somatic components.

So basically, you only need to add Silent Spell to it to make it a merely mental action.

Thanks for the correction.

You might want to look at CMag as well, the Wu Jen gets some lovin' there too.
Especially the Elemental Adept feat for spontaneous Telekinesis; cue Jean Grey.

I was planning to read that for more Wu Jen goodness, but haven't gotten around to it yet. (That is, I've read it, but not with a Wu Jen focus in mind.)



So... about my questions?

[Grumman]

[*] For those of you that played the class, which taboos did you pick to minimize the chance of getting messed with by the DM? (I thought of "cannot sit without crossing legs" as I'd have less a chance of violating that one by accident, but I'm sure some of you have come up with better ones.)

I didn't end up getting to use the character, but the two I picked for Ashley Dennisson were not drinking alcohol and not owning more than she could carry.

[*] What is your overall opinion of the class?

I'm a big fan of Gishy builds that include Wu Jen 6 and Incantatrix 3. You get the necessary metamagic feat at first level, and Iron Will costs just 3,000 gp with the Otyugh Den special location. In exchange you get to create Body Outside Body clones that can help you abuse cooperative metamagic, and you can Persist them, giving you expendible minions that last all day.

[Douglas]

I'm a big fan of Gishy builds that include Wu Jen 6 and Incantatrix 3. You get the necessary metamagic feat at first level, and Iron Will costs just 3,000 gp with the Otyugh Den special location. In exchange you get to create Body Outside Body clones that can help you abuse cooperative metamagic, and you can Persist them, giving you expendible minions that last all day.

Speaking of which... *points at sig (you want the Team Solars link)*

1. ALL the knowledge skills - Coupled with your int bonus, you can be the party loremaster even more easily than a wizard.

Wizards get all knowledge skills too, so unless I'm misremembering and Wu Jen get more than 2 base skill points per level this one's just equal to a Wizard.

Overall I think it's a decent class but its spell list misses out on a lot of the versatility and many of the more powerful spells on the Wizard list. It has a few unique things that only Wu Jen can do (see the Body Outside Body thing above) and can be a decently powerful class, but unless you're abusing a particular Wu Jen only spell it's not usually useful for high optimization. Of course, most DMs would take one look at something like Team Solars and instantly ban the entire party, so that's not necessarily a bad thing...

[Glimbur]

I recommend Metal specialization. I'm not sure it's the most powerful, but it will help you with all the silly scarf spells. If they didn't require regular attack rolls and were instead touch attacks they might even be useful instead of just stylish.

[Starbuck_II]

Not as many PrCs open to them (I don't know offhand which ones, though.)

No, actually other than Planar Binding requiring spells Prcs, they qualify for 85% of all Prcs that a Wizard can.

The class has useful spells like Snake Darts (4th level, auto hit, 3d6 damage per dart, you get 2). Each deals damage and 1d6 Con poison (Fort dave for now and 1 minute later).

I've killed Hydras and Fire Giants with it.

Drawback, you can't effectively cast it more than 1 battle due to need to waste an action to reswallow the snake. I have no clue why the limitation.

[Optimystik]

I'm a big fan of Gishy builds that include Wu Jen 6 and Incantatrix 3. You get the necessary metamagic feat at first level, and Iron Will costs just 3,000 gp with the Otyugh Den special location. In exchange you get to create Body Outside Body clones that can help you abuse cooperative metamagic, and you can Persist them, giving you expendible minions that last all day.

Ignoring the noticeable smell of gouda that accompanies Incantatrix... how is that a gish build? It seems like it would be a pure caster to me. Neither Wu Jen nor 'Trix gain anything on their own that can benefit melee. Or am I missing something?

Wizards get all knowledge skills too, so unless I'm misremembering and Wu Jen get more than 2 base skill points per level this one's just equal to a Wizard.

Oh good point, I misread the Sorcerer entry on the SRD as being Wizard and thought they only got Arcana. But Wu Jen do have a slight advantage even so; they get Giant as a bonus language in addition to Draconic, putting them one bonus language ahead of Wizards.

Overall I think it's a decent class but its spell list misses out on a lot of the versatility and many of the more powerful spells on the Wizard list. It has a few unique things that only Wu Jen can do (see the Body Outside Body thing above) and can be a decently powerful class, but unless you're abusing a particular Wu Jen only spell it's not usually useful for high optimization. Of course, most DMs would take one look at something like Team Solars and instantly ban the entire party, so that's not necessarily a bad thing...

This is a fair assessment. I didn't expect it to dethrone (or even come close to dethroning) the vaunted Wizard, but how does it stack up compared to the other base classes? Say, the Warmage, Sorcerer, or Psion? What tier is it in? I'd assume not as high as a Sorc or Psion, since WJ gets less love from splat books, but how much less?

[Adumbration]

A honorary mention for the Wu Jen has to be the 9th level spell from CMage, Arboreal transformation. Is it on par with other 9th level spell? No. Is it cool? Yes.

Turning your enemy's mook into a treant? Priceless.

[hamishspence]

Spell Compendium recommends adding element spells (not air) wood spells, and Metal spells, to the Wu Jen list.

So, if the DM is generous, the list can receive a hefty boost.

[Jade_Tarem]

The best trick I've seen performed with Wu Jen comes at high levels - Wu Jen 8-9/Elemental Adept(Air) 10 makes your Wu Jen an Air Elemental, complete with whirlwind. Couple that with the 7th level Wu Jen spell Giant Size, and then use Whirlwind, and you have a Colossal-sized Whirlwind - A sentient tornado! It helps that the whirlwind attacks are all based off Con, and that Giant size boosts Con...

Basically, you can rip a Purple Wurm out of the ground and throw it. It can lay a world of hurt on flying creatures, too.

[Vizzerdrix]

I just wish their was a spontaneous version of Wu Jen. I hate prepped casting.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Water is my favorite a lot of ability dmg specifically with con.

I found that reach spell(taken as bonus) at first with easy metamagic is nice.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I've used Wu Jen to make a gish, as well. The general idea is that Giant Size gets silly, especially on clones from Body Outside Body. Requires using Archmage to get that as an SLA so the clones can use it, but eh.

Basic build went something like Human Paragon 1/Wu Jen1/Human Paragon+2/Wu Jen+2/Eldritch Knight 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 2. Grabbing Transcend Mortality and Giant Size for the clones. Prereqs are a bit of a hassle, admittedly.

[Woodsman]

Transcend Mortality from Complete Mage is a pretty sweet Wu Jen-only spell, except you die when it's over.

Duration 1 round/level
It's effects include:
DR 30/ Epic
SR 21 + CL (Min. 38)
Resistance to Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity, and Sonic 50
Immune to ability damage, disease, energy drain, poison, and death effects
+10 Bonus to all saving throws
No need to eat, drink, or breathe

You can be resurrected, but you still die, which does suck. The no "eating, drinking, and breathing" thing is kind of pointless too, except the breathing part.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Can't you Revenance/Revivify or somesuch? Makes the material component an expensive 1000 gp, but for that sort of buff...

[Woodsman]

Can't you Revenance/Revivify or somesuch? Makes the material component an expensive 1000 gp, but for that sort of buff...

Nope. You disintegrate into ash, which I'm pretty sure isn't covered by Revivify.

Edit: Both of those spells function as Raise Dead, which doesn't work on disintegrated bodies.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Which is why it's on the clones as an SLA. Actually having to use Transcend Mortality yourself would be bad. Admittedly, it is kind of a waste to burn a 9th level spell slot to get it as an SLA for the clones.

[Douglas]

Take Arcane Disciple for the Spite domain and cast Pact of Return from Heroes of Horror. No component cost, contingent resurrection with no level loss provided you correctly predict the cause of your death.

[Optimystik]

A honorary mention for the Wu Jen has to be the 9th level spell from CMage, Arboreal transformation. Is it on par with other 9th level spell? No. Is it cool? Yes.

Turning your enemy's mook into a treant? Priceless.

That is a nifty spell (I especially like the days/level duration Slow even on a successful save) but you're right, for a 9th level that's a little weak.

Spell Compendium recommends adding element spells (not air) wood spells, and Metal spells, to the Wu Jen list.

So, if the DM is generous, the list can receive a hefty boost.

Oh, that's excellent. Why not Air though? But it does add to the Wu Jen's power considerably.

EDIT: Scratch that, stupid question. I forgot that air isn't one of the Chinese Elements.

For lightning and such, wood is usually used - see depictions of Seiryuu/Jupiter in most media based on Chinese myth, such as Last Blade, Sailor Moon and Otogi.

I just wish their was a spontaneous version of Wu Jen. I hate prepped casting.

The nice thing about prepared casting is you can learn all the situational and niche spells you can get your hands on.

Plus, I'd love to make a Wu Jen Geometer, with exotic oriental inks, whose "spellbook" is one long scroll covered in complex, angular characters and nigh-indecipherable poetry.

[Starbuck_II]

Oh, that's excellent. Why not Air though? But it does add to the Wu Jen's power considerably.

Because Wu Jen hate Air.
Seriously, I think that is the truth.

[KillianHawkeye]

Take Arcane Disciple for the Spite domain and cast Pact of Return from Heroes of Horror. No component cost, contingent resurrection with no level loss provided you correctly predict the cause of your death.

But you have to be Neutral Evil.

[Foryn Gilnith]

You could get cleric spells. MT for any alignment, Ur-Priest/MT for evils.

[Jade_Tarem]

Could you end the Transcend Mortality inside an Antimagic Sphere? If the death thing is an ending instant effect of the spell, then being inside an AMS when the duration ends would keep you alive...

Or is that just goofy?

[Starbuck_II]

No, that works. Good combo.
Timeless Body works too.

[Enlong]

Nope. You disintegrate into ash, which I'm pretty sure isn't covered by Revivify.

Edit: Both of those spells function as Raise Dead, which doesn't work on disintegrated bodies.

Isn't there a class with the ability to explode and reform like... at the end of the hour/day/whatever? What happens if you use that Wu Jen power, and explode before the spell finishes? There's nothing there to inevitably die, and the spell should be over by the time you reconstitute yourself.

[Starbuck_II]

Isn't there a class with the ability to explode and reform like... at the end of the hour/day/whatever? What happens if you use that Wu Jen power, and explode before the spell finishes? There's nothing there to inevitably die, and the spell should be over by the time you reconstitute yourself.

ToB has Jade Pheonix Mage ability like that.

[Enlong]

ToB has Jade Pheonix Mage ability like that.

That's what I was thinking of.

What happens if you, as a Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage, cast Trancend Mortality and then go all FOOM just before the spell ends?

[TheThan]

You know what, I was disappointed with the class.

Not because of the fact that it’s a wizard, but different. I was disappointed with the fact that it uses almost purely wizard/sorcerer spells pulled from the PHB. Basically they took a bunch of spells, stuck a “element” on them and called it a day. Frankly, it’s a bit uninspired.

So I decided to fix this problem. I left the class alone, but I altered the spell list to be a bit more elemental (thanks spell compendium).