Cost of Powerful Build?

[Another_Poet]

Hi everyone,

I am running a one-off adventure tomorrow (Friday) with pre-made characters.

One of the players asked me to make a - wait for it - halfling monk for him. I know, I know.

Anyway, out of the goodness of my heart I would like to give this poor little bear bait the Powerful Build extraordinary ability (such as half-giants have). Let him count as one size bigger than he is for weapon size (including unarmed damage), grapple/trip mods, etc.

So my question is: What is a fair tradeoff for gaining Powerful Build? Should I just count it as a feat, or should I replace some class ability with it? Or a racial trait? What do you think?

Speedy advice is appreciated :)

ap

[hamishspence]

Races of Faerun has a human-only feat that grant most of the Powerful Build- type abilities- but not, the boost to weapon size wieldable.

Using this as a precedent, it is worth slightly more than a feat.

Goliaths and Half Giants, which have it, are both LA +1.

I'm not sure if giving it to a halfling would be worth a +1 to LA, without other boosts to go with it.

[Kylarra]

He's a monk, you could probably just give it to him as monk-tax.

Alternatively, cost it as his first level feat, or maybe just his first level bonus feat. Titan fighting-style monk I guess.

[Myrmex]

Just give it to him. RAW, powerful build doesn't make a monk's fists more damaging. It'll just help him in grapples, bullrushes, etc. Pretty minor.

[AstralFire]

He's a monk, you could probably just give it to him as monk-tax.

This. I don't think it'd be too over the top for powerful build to actually become a third level monk class feature, even.

[Godskook]

Not powerful-build related, but monk-boosting related:

Spoiler

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Some small but useful adjustments:
1.Decide that gauntlets really do count as unarmed strikes, thus allowing monks to buy a weapon that has synergy with their class features.
2.Houserule that monks have full BAB.

These are generally considered as 'not enough', but are a good start for a monk.

Also, if you'll find it in your heart to ignore the alignment restriction of the monk class, there's Aura of Chaos, but he'll need a ToB dip to qualify. There's also kung-fu genius, which allows him to be more skillfocused, since his will saves are already decent.

If he's willing to expand outside of the monk class while staying monk-flavored, unarmed swordsage would be great improvement as well.

[Prime32]

When he says "monk" does he mean a character who stands still while making inaccurate barrages of attacks, speaks every language but cannot speak to undead, and is immune to poison? Or does he mean a character who is good at fighting unarmed? Because the monk class does not fit the latter.

Unarmed swordsage is the general answer given here, though any martial class can pull it off with Improved Unarmed Strike (and possibly Superior Unarmed Strike).

[AstralFire]

I think we can give regular posters here the benefit of the doubt regarding whether or not they've heard of UA Swordsage and Tome of Battle.

[Another_Poet]

When he says "monk" does he mean a character who stands still while making inaccurate barrages of attacks, speaks every language but cannot speak to undead, and is immune to poison? Or does he mean a character who is good at fighting unarmed? Because the monk class does not fit the latter.

Lol, sadly he means "the monk in the PHB."

Given that, it sounds like the consensus is give it to him for free. I will, and grant Medium size unarmed damage, and maybe full BAB too.

Then he can go on believing that Monks Are Okay without realising just how much I changed the class :)

I am pretty excited though. I am going to give all the pregen characters some 4e-ish powers (an at-will, an encounter and a daily) even though this is 3.5/Pathfinder. The Ranger's daily is going to be Wandering Monster Lure. Basically he can call out and a randomly rolled wandering monster shows up from the direction of his choosing, destroying all in its path to the best of its abilities.

The group will be all-halfling and must try to liberate the Shire's recently-abducted chocolatier.

He he he.

He he.

He.

[AstralFire]

Three changes I really suggest which take little effort:

- Stunning Fist grants (1+Char Level/5) usage per encounter, rather than (Monk Class Level+Non-Monk Class Level/4) usage per day.
- Make stunning fist work on everything.
- Let Flurry of Blows add attacks on charges.

Those do so much for the monk.

[Another_Poet]

Three changes I really suggest which take little effort:

- Stunning Fist grants (1+Char Level/5) usage per encounter, rather than (Monk Class Level+Non-Monk Class Level/4) usage per day.
- Make stunning fist work on everything.
- Let Flurry of Blows add attacks on charges.

Those do so much for the monk.

I'm actually considering letting Flurry of Blows work anytime, even after moving, etc. I feel that if that and TWF both worked that way, the worlds would be a better place.

[AstralFire]

I'm actually considering letting Flurry of Blows work anytime, even after moving, etc. I feel that if that and TWF both worked that way, the worlds would be a better place.

I approve. Gets usage out of Spring Attack as well.

[Another_Poet]

I approve. Gets usage out of Spring Attack as well.

In one of my PbP's I have a house rule that Fighters and Monks can always, always choose to take an extra attack (and impose a -2 on all attacks that round). For Monks this stacks with Flurry (and the penalties stack) and for anyone it stacks with TWF (and again, so do the penalties). So far it has been all awesome, all the time with no drawbacks I can see.

[Tyndmyr]

He's a monk, you could probably just give it to him as monk-tax.

This. He's a halfling monk. Not even like, a water orc monk, which has a ghost of an attempt at optimization. Give him the feat as a freebie, and it'll never be a problem.

[Zovc]

Your player may enjoy being a Strongheart Halfling.

Where can I find the Unarmed Swordsage I keep hearing about?

[Person_Man]

You may wish to check out this thread. It's actually quite easy to get Unarmed Damage up to 12d6ish range by mid levels. (Hint: Halfling isn't one of them). Monk 2/Psychic Warrior X with the Tashalatora feat, Expansion Power, Improved Natural Attack, and maybe a Battlefist or a friendly Wizard with Mighty Wallop or some other buff spell is probably the most straitforward. Add in a good Grapple combo (Scorpion's Grasp) and a couple of good Stunning Fist feats (Freezing the Lifeblood, Weakening Touch, Pharaoh's Fist) and you have a respectable build.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Where can I find the Unarmed Swordsage I keep hearing about?

It's the suggested adaptation for the swordsage (yes, the suggested one, because Arcane Swordsage does not exist). Basically, it trades out armor proficiencies for Wis to AC and monk's unarmed damage.

[Fluffles]

Actually, I've been considering making an Arcane Swordsage designed to go into JPM.

Why JPM has full BAB I'll never know.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Actually, I've been considering making an Arcane Swordsage designed to go into JPM.

Why JPM has full BAB I'll never know.

I assume you're going to put some limits on it to not make it ridiculously broken?

[deuxhero]

Actually, I've been considering making an Arcane Swordsage designed to go into JPM.

Why JPM has full BAB I'll never know.

Because Arcane Sword sage is an IDEA for a class and not something the book is balanced around?

[Akal Saris]

Well, considering JPM is intended for swordsage/wizards, and neither has full BAB, it would make sense for it to be 3/4 BAB.

[AstralFire]

Well, considering JPM is intended for swordsage/wizards, and neither has full BAB, it would make sense for it to be 3/4 BAB.

Considering it's for frontliners and can also suit crusader/sorcerer, no.

[Inhuman Bot]

Out of curiosity, what's a JPM? I gather it's something like... Jade Pheonix mage that combines martial abilites with wizard casting?

Also, what book is it in? CAr?

[Frosty]

Out of curiosity, what's a JPM? I gather it's something like... Jade Pheonix mage that combines martial abilites with wizard casting?

Also, what book is it in? CAr?

Tome of Battle.

[Draz74]

Where can I find the Unarmed Swordsage I keep hearing about?

Short answer: Tome of Battle.

Out of curiosity, what's a JPM? I gather it's something like... Jade Pheonix mage that combines martial abilites with wizard casting?

Also, what book is it in? CAr?

Tome of Battle.

And yes, Jade Phoenix Mage is a Gish class that progresses both Tome of Battle-style Maneuvers (but, mostly the ones that blast foes with fire and heal, so not the most martial-feeling ones) and spellcasting.

[Fluffles]

Yeah. JPM should have had 3/4 BAB. Or 1/2 caster progression. Not 8/10.

But yeah, would the Caster progression side advance swordsage levels instead of a "real" caster class?

[Grumman]

Yeah. JPM should have had 3/4 BAB. Or 1/2 caster progression. Not 8/10.

If you've already lost 2 B.A.B. and either 1 caster level (and another B.A.B. if you use Swordsage) or 3 feats just entering the class, and already lose 2 caster levels getting to JPM 10, losing an extra 3 B.A.B. or caster levels is going to leave you as an unsynergistic mess.

[deuxhero]

I think you can enter JPM without lost BAB via steel dragon and various gish classes and LA buy off, but that is beside the point.