Twofold question about LA

[Obahai]

In the last campaign I played a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Dragon Shaman (MM3 and PHB2) which has a LA of +1. Using the stats listed from MM3 does that mean my 6th level critter should have only 4 levels of dragon shaman?


I bring this up because I was told last night that my feral gargun fighter, at level 7 should only have 3 levels of fighter, because of the two hd worth of monstrous humanoid and has a level adjustment of +2.

[Godskook]

In the last campaign I played a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Dragon Shaman (MM3 and PHB2) which has a LA of +1. Using the stats listed from MM3 does that mean my 6th level critter should have only 4 levels of dragon shaman?

Does it have racial HD?

I bring this up because I was told last night that my feral gargun fighter, at level 7 should only have 3 levels of fighter, because of the two hd worth of monstrous humanoid and has a level adjustment of +2.

2 RHD + 2 LA + Fighter 3 = ECL 7, so yes, in this case, you should only have 3 levels of fighter, but you're only losing 2 levels to the LA(the other 2 levels are to Racial Hit Dice).

[kamikasei]

Assuming that the race you mention has one racial hit die, yes.

Your ECL (effective character level) is what's used for XP and wealth calculations, and it's the sum of your class levels, racial hit dice, and level adjustment. So since nominally characters of the same ECL are supposed to be equal, if your lizardfolk with one racial hit die and +1 LA is in a party with a level six human whatever, he should have four class levels to bring him up to ECL 6 to match. This leaves you with four levels of class features, five "levels" granting HP, BAB, skills, saves, feats etc. (think of the RHD as a "racial class"), and one "dead" level to make up for the stat increases and special abilities or whatever else lizardfolk get that the designers though earned them a +1 LA.

[Obahai]

Until last night, it was usually assumed that since the feral gargun has 2 RDH(which is where the +2 LA comes from) would mean that the fg could only take 5 lvls of fighter, giving it an ecl of 7


and if you are looking for a homebrew, lemme know, I've got absolutely nothing to do today

[hamishspence]

don't humanoid or monstrous humanoid creatures with only one racial hit die automatically count as being, say, 1st level warriors?

And if you choose to start in a different class, don't you usually lose the racial "warrior" hit die?

My guess is, for the Poison Dusk, if you aren't being forced to take that 1st level in an NPC class, you could have a Level 5 Dragon Shaman, with only 5 HD (Dragon Shaman ones) and it "counts as" a level 6 character.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

In the last campaign I played a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Dragon Shaman (MM3 and PHB2) which has a LA of +1. Using the stats listed from MM3 does that mean my 6th level critter should have only 4 levels of dragon shaman?

No, a poison dusk lizard folk does not retain any racial hit dice. 1-HD Humanoids drop the racial hit die in favor of a class hit die. In fact, the basic Poison Dusk Lizardfolk listed in MMIII is listed as a 1st-level Ranger and shows no racial hit dice. Note that this means unless you are creating a Ranger, a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk would not get any of the ranger abilities listed in the stat block.

Poison Dusk Lizard folk have an "As Characters" block. If you simply follow whats there, you'll be good.

don't humanoid or monstrous humanoid creatures with only one racial hit die automatically count as being, say, 1st level warriors?

Not always warriors. You have to look at the stat block.

What happens is humanoids that start with only one hit die advance purely by class level, not racial hit dice. The monster manual stat blocks give stats for the types most likely to engage PCs in combat, which are usually Warriors. Apparently Poison Dusk Lizard Folk are special enough that they have a bunch of full PC-classed Rangers running around instead, since the "basic" version is a 1st-level Ranger.

[Sinfire Titan]

Assuming that the race you mention has one racial hit die, yes.

Your ECL (effective character level) is what's used for XP and wealth calculations, and it's the sum of your class levels, racial hit dice, and level adjustment. So since nominally characters of the same ECL are supposed to be equal,n. This leaves you with four levels of class features, five "levels" granting HP, BAB, skills, saves, feats etc. (think of the RHD as a "racial class"), and one "dead" level to make up for the stat increases and special abilities or whatever else lizardfolk get that the designers though earned them a +1 LA.

No...

The rules presented in Savage Species and the MM both say to ignore the HD if the race you are playing has one or less racial HD.

Hit Dice and Class Levels

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

[Dogmantra]

Until last night, it was usually assumed that since the feral gargun has 2 RDH(which is where the +2 LA comes from) would mean that the fg could only take 5 lvls of fighter, giving it an ecl of 7

Ah, I see the confusion here. Does it list both 2 RHD and +2 LA?
If so, that means it has 2 racial hit dice and a level adjustment of +2, which adds to 4.

[kamikasei]

*smacks forehead*

Of course, previous posters are correct. As a 1HD humanoid, the PDL advances by character class with no racial HD, just the +1 LA.

[Obahai]

i do understand the 2 rhd plus the +2 La, means i start off at level 4, but previous dm's kept it much simpler by saying a +2 la means you have 2 less pc levels than everyone else, but you still get the benefits from those 2 "dead levels"*

*while still maintaining a equivalent ecl of the rest of the party

[kamikasei]

i do understand the 2 rhd plus the +2 La, means i start off at level 4, but previous dm's kept it much simpler by saying a +2 la means you have 2 less pc levels than everyone else, but you still get the benefits from those 2 "dead levels"*

*while still maintaining a equivalent ecl of the rest of the party

I don't know what you mean by that. Could you explain?

What benefits are you getting if you don't have the levels?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

i do understand the 2 rhd plus the +2 La, means i start off at level 4, but previous dm's kept it much simpler by saying a +2 la means you have 2 less pc levels than everyone else, but you still get the benefits from those 2 "dead levels"

That's correct. LA counts in addition to racial hit dice.

Note that racial hit dice aren't necessarily "dead", either. Some of the powerful abilities gained from a race should be bought in part with the racial hit dice, and this should be considered when assigning LA. So your 2HD + 2LA monster would have a number of powerful abilities and adjustments that put him in line with a fourth level fighter, not a second level one.

Keep in mind that this is how it should work. Often, designers forget to keep racial hit dice in mind when assigning LA. Some designers even admit to intentionally overestimating LA. In the end, if your group finds it more balanced to treat it as 2HD + 0LA, that's how you should play.

[Obahai]

I don't know what you mean by that. Could you explain?

What benefits are you getting if you don't have the levels?

the feral gargun gets a +2 LA b/c of powerful build, d6 claw attack, cold res 5, and +2 nat armor. they also get a +2 bab, a bonus feat, and a +3 to ref and will. all of these are paid for in the +2 level adjustment.

without these benefits, playing at 2 levels lower than the rest of the party, just adds another poorly played bard or sorc to the mix

[Obahai]

That's correct. LA counts in addition to racial hit dice.

Note that racial hit dice aren't necessarily "dead", either. Some of the powerful abilities gained from a race should be bought in part with the racial hit dice, and this should be considered when assigning LA. So your 2HD + 2LA monster would have a number of powerful abilities and adjustments that put him in line with a fourth level fighter, not a second level one.

Keep in mind that this is how it should work. Often, designers forget to keep racial hit dice in mind when assigning LA. Some designers even admit to intentionally overestimating LA. In the end, if your group finds it more balanced to treat it as 2HD + 0LA, that's how you should play.

that's what i'm trying to convince my dm to do, i also offered to take a minimum 1.5 increase to xp for me to level.

[kamikasei]

the feral gargun gets a +2 LA b/c of powerful build, d6 claw attack, cold res 5, and +2 nat armor. they also get a +2 bab, a bonus feat, and a +3 to ref and will. all of these are paid for in the +2 level adjustment.

without these benefits, playing at 2 levels lower than the rest of the party, just adds another poorly played bard or sorc to the mix

I'm confused as to what you're actually asking, so. You seem to know the RAW and how your houserules differ from it.

[Godskook]

that's what i'm trying to convince my dm to do, i also offered to take a minimum 1.5 increase to xp for me to level.

Try this. It will help ease the pain of LA for you.

[infinitypanda]

they also get a +2 bab, a bonus feat, and a +3 to ref and will. all of these are paid for in the +2 level adjustment.

I haven't looked at the race, so I could be wrong, but it seems that the bab, bonus feat, and save bonuses would come from its racial hit dice, not the LA.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

the feral gargun gets a +2 LA b/c of powerful build, d6 claw attack, cold res 5, and +2 nat armor. they also get a +2 bab, a bonus feat, and a +3 to ref and will. all of these are paid for in the +2 level adjustment.

Well, technically, the increase to BAB and saves are part of the racial HD.

In any case, looking at those abilities, I'd say 2HD + 2LA is about right. Maybe a little on the weak side. I'd balance it out with the above-mentioned LA-reduction rule and call it a day.

[KillianHawkeye]

Ah, I see the confusion here. Does it list both 2 RHD and +2 LA?
If so, that means it has 2 racial hit dice and a level adjustment of +2, which adds to 4.

Yes, the feral gargun is an ECL 4 creature before adding any class levels.

[Starbuck_II]

the feral gargun gets a +2 LA b/c of powerful build, d6 claw attack, cold res 5, and +2 nat armor. they also get a +2 bab, a bonus feat, and a +3 to ref and will. all of these are paid for in the +2 level adjustment.

without these benefits, playing at 2 levels lower than the rest of the party, just adds another poorly played bard or sorc to the mix

Wait, you get only LA, but not the RHD that grant the BAB? He gave you the BAB for free?
Wow, that'd cool.

[sofawall]

Wait, you get only LA, but not the RHD that grant the BAB? He gave you the BAB for free?
Wow, that'd cool.

Hey, with buyoff you're using Epic BAB at level 19-20!