(3.5) Training time/ costs

[cZak]

I was wondering if these rules (DMG 197) were used in anyone's games.

Do the time/ costs interfere or help with plot?

How do you use the system for gaining class benefits?

Or is the whole thing just too 'micro-management'...

Fools are made to suffer, not to be suffered

[Temet Nosce]

I was wondering if these rules (DMG 197) were used in anyone's games.

Do the time/ costs interfere or help with plot?

How do you use the system for gaining class benefits?

Or is the whole thing just too 'micro-management'...

Not only have I never had those alternate rules used in a game I was involved in, up until now I'd never even seen anyone so much as mention them. I have seen a few games that made use of houserules vaguely similar to them, but that's as close as it gets. In the case I've seen those in use (basically requiring the PC had the appropriate ability to study, I.E. a library) they slowed the game and were more an irritation than anything else.

I suppose it might work out if you needed a money/time sink and were intending a lengthy (read, several years at least) campaign.

[cZak]

The current campaign I'm running is very city oriented (Greyhawk).
The city has a wealth of RP potential which I thought might be better used if the characters have some direct ties to the local establishments (guilds).

This also opens up potential non-xp rewards for them by gaining contacts and associates with the major players of the city.
- The wizard character is digging up some rare momentos for the upcoming celebration by direction of the Master of Ceremonies of the Wizards Guild.
- The thief type is looking for information on missing children's toys.

Granted, they could get these assignments on their own. But, I'm trying to instill in them some connection to the local community. They're getting back from what they're contributing for being members of the guild.

Fools are made to suffer, not to be suffered

[Temet Nosce]

The current campaign I'm running is very city oriented (Greyhawk).
The city has a wealth of RP potential which I thought might be better used if the characters have some direct ties to the local establishments (guilds).

This also opens up potential non-xp rewards for them by gaining contacts and associates with the major players of the city.
- The wizard character is digging up some rare momentos for the upcoming celebration by direction of the Master of Ceremonies of the Wizards Guild.
- The thief type is looking for information on missing children's toys.

Granted, they could get these assignments on their own. But, I'm trying to instill in them some connection to the local community. They're getting back from what they're contributing for being members of the guild.

If you want to encourage them to value their membership you should make it apparent that they're getting something out of it, not use an alternative ruleset to impose more requirements. Instead you might consider the guilds having information/jobs(as you mentioned)/equipment/(for the Wizard) access to others spellsbooks/etc.

Essentially, make the benefits of membership as apparent as you possibly can.

[Claudius Maximus]

Are you writing that quote into all your posts? There's a sig function in the User CP.

[Foryn Gilnith]

It seems far too tedious. Why do I have to pay just to improve skills? Do poor people have no chance to gain more skill ranks? Why do rogues have to spend months in addition to those he's already spent practicing in the field, while a cleric takes something like one week?

If your players are interested in pursuing guild benefits, they'll play along with the social niceties you dangle in front of them without needing to find a random month to retreat from actual work and do nothing but practice.

[Sir Homeslice]

Training times are idiotic.

[jiriku]

I was wondering if these rules (DMG 197) were used in anyone's games.

Do the time/ costs interfere or help with plot?

How do you use the system for gaining class benefits?

Or is the whole thing just too 'micro-management'...

I don't use those rules. They interfere. There are only two possible ways a DM can handle training:

1) "Okay, you guys take some time off for training. A few weeks go by, everybody levels up, and now back to the story."

2) "Sorry, adventure calls. You don't have time to train right now. Guess you can't level up."

#1 is an unnecessary distraction from the story. #2 annoys the bejesus out of your players. The only "value" that training can offer is A) additional realism, B) wealth drain, or C) delaying level-up. If you want realism, you can insert a training scene AT ANY TIME in your story. You don't have to wait for characters to level, although you can do it at that time if you wish. If you want wealth drain, simply place less treasure in your encounters. And if you want to delay level-up, only give out experience at break-points in the plot where you think it's appropriate for characters to level.

The only constraint I place on leveling is that characters must rest for the night to do it (which prepared casters will want to do anyway to fill their new spell slots). Even this is a stylistic thing and I can totally see why some DMs might want no restraints at all.

[Nostri]

For most things (read: normal leveling, advancing most skills, and other similar actions) I assume the characters are practicing during the various downtimes throughout normal game play. For example when they stop for the night the fighter practices his sword forms, the wizard goes over notes on the spells he's developing and thinking of learning, the bard composes new music, etc.

There are other things that I require players make their character go seek out training for though. Common examples are Knowledge skills (unless they're carrying around a set of instruction manuals with them and can make some Intelligence checks for them, and yes this is for both advancing existing skills and gaining new ones. No matter how many times you read those same 20 pages of notes you took you won't learn anything new from it), rare spells (for me this means most spells over 7th level though it varies between campaigns and what other spells the caster knows), and various feats (I'm not going to make someone train for Toughness or Run, PCs get enough practice for both of those just doing what they do, but if the fighter's been using a longsword the whole campaign and suddenly decides he wants to use a spiked chain despite the fact that he's never seen one let alone used one I'll make him find someone to teach him before I let him take the feat.)

I suppose that it's also worth mentioning however that I'll give players free feats, skill "ranks", spells etc if they roleplay something like training or an other experience very well. From my point of view that kind of thing falls under other things to award players with other then xp and gold.

[Pika...]

I was wondering if these rules (DMG 197) were used in anyone's games.

Do the time/ costs interfere or help with plot?

How do you use the system for gaining class benefits?

Or is the whole thing just too 'micro-management'...

Holy Crud!!!


Thank you!

This is beyond perfect for my DMing style and universe. I am shocked I had not been lead to these rules yet.

This will give my PCs the ability to evolve mechanically, but there being a reason and fluff behind it. I wish I had these a year ago.

I LOVE this.

[Sinfire Titan]

I've used TES' method of handling this (you don't level up until you've slept for the night). It allowed us to use downtime, but my players made no comment on it.

I enforce the Retraining rules in PH2 sometimes, specifically when testing a Rez variant I posted a while ago (that replaced their class levels with Commoner levels instead of making them lose a level), but I'm just as likely to handwave it. I've also had a player level up mid-combat, but a Miracle spell was involved.

[Pika...]

I don't use those rules. They interfere. There are only two possible ways a DM can handle training:

1) "Okay, you guys take some time off for training. A few weeks go by, everybody levels up, and now back to the story."

2) "Sorry, adventure calls. You don't have time to train right now. Guess you can't level up."

#1 is an unnecessary distraction from the story. #2 annoys the bejesus out of your players. The only "value" that training can offer is A) additional realism, B) wealth drain, or C) delaying level-up. If you want realism, you can insert a training scene AT ANY TIME in your story. You don't have to wait for characters to level, although you can do it at that time if you wish. If you want wealth drain, simply place less treasure in your encounters. And if you want to delay level-up, only give out experience at break-points in the plot where you think it's appropriate for characters to level.

The only constraint I place on leveling is that characters must rest for the night to do it (which prepared casters will want to do anyway to fill their new spell slots). Even this is a stylistic thing and I can totally see why some DMs might want no restraints at all.

Well, at least in my case I run a world where I tell the players to write a brithdate and age for their PCs. I try to run a sandbox world where the focus is the "epic journey" of the PCs, not an A to B to Z module. I also keep track of the date and year of my campaign setting as the PCs pass days. So PCs can theoretically die of old age. Think FF Tactics style.

Plus, it would allow me to "slow" things down a bit to the older editions feel.

[cZak]

It made some sense to me while reading the description of the rules in the DMG.

As other poster's have noted, it does create a potential interference with the game. But, I'm not saying the training time needs to be rp'd or take up actual game/ table time. But it seemed logical that this was a reasonable process.

Some modules operate on a limited period for the action (RHoD). In this example, the characters advance from ~6th level up to as much as 12th over a period as little as a month (story time). Taking time out for training would be impossible to continue the story arc, as the Horde would overrun the area after one or two training periods.

But, in an instance where a PC takes a new class (a fighter deciding to dip into rogue) is it reasonable that he suddenly acquires these new skills and knowledge? It makes even less sense for a first dip into a caster class.

And some other considerations:
- do the wealth by level (WBL) rules take this cost into consideration?
- it allows for the effects of time to effect the characters: aging, which I assume most games pretty much ignore w/o DM fiat of "...X years pass"

[Sinfire Titan]

But, in an instance where a PC takes a new class (a fighter deciding to dip into rogue) is it reasonable that he suddenly acquires these new skills and knowledge? It makes even less sense for a first dip into a caster class.

And some other considerations:
- do the wealth by level (WBL) rules take this cost into consideration?
- it allows for the effects of time to effect the characters: aging, which I assume most games pretty much ignore w/o DM fiat of "...X years pass"

Multiclassing wasn't founded on the basis of being realistic. If it were a priority, the devs would have said so when they introduced the mechanic in 3.0. Its easy to handwave it, and the player can justify it in their back story.

The WBL is the real problem with it. It wasn't written to be separate from the WBL, and as written (it was designed for Sorcerers, remember?) it makes some classes much worse. Seriously, introducing that mechanic as written is going to make Sorcerers pay for their spells known, while Wizards have this handy clause in their advancement that says they don't have to.

[Pika...]

But, in an instance where a PC takes a new class (a fighter deciding to dip into rogue) is it reasonable that he suddenly acquires these new skills and knowledge? It makes even less sense for a first dip into a caster class.

Agreed. Hence why I require the variant Test-Based Prerequisites rules from Unearthed Arcana not only for PrC, but if a character wishes to multiclass.

And some other considerations:
- do the wealth by level (WBL) rules take this cost into consideration?
- it allows for the effects of time to effect the characters: aging, which I assume most games pretty much ignore w/o DM fiat of "...X years pass"

A wonder the same.

[Pika...]

Multiclassing wasn't founded on the basis of being realistic. If it were a priority, the devs would have said so when they introduced the mechanic in 3.0. Its easy to handwave it, and the player can justify it in their back story.

Well, for those of us who are interested in a route other than the cliche stuffing a sentence in the PCs fluff (if even that).

[cZak]

The WBL is the real problem with it. It wasn't written to be separate from the WBL, and as written (it was designed for Sorcerers, remember?) it makes some classes much worse. Seriously, introducing that mechanic as written is going to make Sorcerers pay for their spells known, while Wizards have this handy clause in their advancement that says they don't have to.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic...
The spontaneous casters still don't spend money to acquire spells. They just need to find something/ one to teach/ enlighten them. This opens up more character development in that the 'something' generally prefers non-monetary consideration.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm not sure I'm following your logic...
The spontaneous casters still don't spend money to acquire spells. They just need to find something/ one to teach/ enlighten them. This opens up more character development in that the 'something' generally prefers non-monetary consideration.

Who requests payment every time, be it in a favor or actual cash. In the latter case, the Sorcerer suffers more than the Wizard. In the former case, every level the Sorcerer gains makes the game focus on him for a set amount of time. The former can be just a small trinket, or it could be an actual plot hook that the Sorcerer either has to do or suffer for not doing it.


In other words, as written it is somewhat disruptive, or places more duty on the DM than the players.

[cZak]

Training times are idiotic.
- Sir Homeslice

Wow, bet you're a cherished member of debate teams...

Might I recommend a career in politics or MSM...

[cZak]

The scenarios provided give some examples for sorcerers advancement, with non-monetary examples. And if there is a monetary cost, its considered within the calculated cost for training.
Actually, once a patron is found, it's probably capable of training the sorcerer for several levels. Or provide a follow on patron.
Instead of sending the sorcerer off on some side quests sans party, the sorcerer could regale the patron with stories of his deeds as justification for the training.

I just saw this as a mechanic to add more rp for the game. It even supports my original intent of using the mechanics to advance the storyline. A mentor or patron to provide guidance for the party.

[Tyndmyr]

Training times are idiotic.

This. It's just annoying, and adds nothing to the game.