Alignment question

[valce]

Out of curiosity, here's a scenario:

A Good NPC is forced by an Evil NPC to infiltrate the PC party and murder the PC's and/or any innocents they have travelling with them [or some other evil act]. Let's say the Good NPC has a very good reason for obeying the Evil NPC [his family, hometown, nation, planet is being threatened, take your pick].

One of the suspicious PC's casts detect alignment -- what does he see? From my understanding, this spell should still reveal that the Good PC is good aligned, correct? A sense motive may get a little more out of him, but detect alignment itself won't reveal anything about his intentions?

-V

[Foryn Gilnith]

This really comes down to DM preference. Some DMs I know operate on a sort of situational alignment, where the nature of the acts currently being committed influence alignment spells. Others simply have a static alignment.

If your good NPC remains good for complying with this request (a statement I would personally reject), then as far as I can tell by RAW he'd still display as good. So no, no evil-sense on the detection. As well as it should - neutral people are easily capable of harming or killing the PCs, making Detect Evil a crude measurement.

[Grumman]

I'd say he shows up as evil. Murdering innocent bystanders to save people you care more about is evil. Besides, if the evil NPC is evil enough to hold people hostage to make the good NPC kill innocent people, he's also evil enough to break his promise.

[Riffington]

Out of curiosity, here's a scenario:

A Good NPC is forced by an Evil NPC to infiltrate the PC party and murder the PC's and/or any innocents they have travelling with them [or some other evil act]. Let's say the Good NPC has a very good reason for obeying the Evil NPC [his family, hometown, nation, planet is being threatened, take your pick].

One of the suspicious PC's casts detect alignment -- what does he see? From my understanding, this spell should still reveal that the Good PC is good aligned, correct? A sense motive may get a little more out of him, but detect alignment itself won't reveal anything about his intentions?

-V

Well, murder is very Evil regardless of what is being threatened. After more than a day (or so) of commitment to this plan, he'll convert from Good to Evil. So the alignment the PC detects is determined by the NPC's alignment at the time. If the NPC has just now got on board with the plan, he may still be Good. After a little while (several hours?) if he's still ok with this plan, he will be Neutral. After a day (or so) if he's still committed to the evil plan, he will be Evil and detect as such.

But it's not your current plans that the Detect detects. It's You, and your current plans can affect that but need not. If the NPC were merely planning an evil theft, he might remain Good despite that evil act.

[Kylarra]

He's good. Intentions don't really matter here, because he hasn't actually done anything. Perhaps he's trying to figure out a way to get back at the BBEG, perhaps he's going to confess to the PCs, regardless, he hasn't committed any actual (evil) acts yet, so there's no reason to make him "fall". Also of note is the fact that generally speaking, singular evil acts aren't enough to convert you straight to evil, and the majority of PCs are rarely paragons of virtue anyway.

[Nero24200]

In this case, this isn't really a black and white answer (which kinda sucks given how black and white alignment is). To me though, it would depend on the scale of alot of things.

To what extent is the NPC's family or whatever is being held? Does he/she reasonably beleive they will actually be freed? Where there any other ways he could have saved them? If not, then it might come across as evil since it's really a case of "I'm choosing others lives needless over yours".

It would also depend on how/why he spies on the PC's. If he/she knows that such infomation could potentially lead to the PC's death (or the death of their love ones), then again, I'd say it's evil for the reason listed above. If he thinks he might be able to use the PC's to help free his family, I'd lean it more towards chaos. If he/she is really in the dark and doesn't think it could result in the PC's death, then less of an evil act.

In short, I'd say it's an evil act to do something like this, since it pretty much comes across as "I think I have a right to say that X's lives are more valuble than yours", which seems like a pretty selfish line of thought. Though the more he/she tries to avoid screwing over the PC's, and the more desperate he/she feels the situation is, the less evil I'd say it is, to the point that it might not alter the persons alignment at all. This is really a "DM call" area.

[Kylarra]

We also don't know that the PCs themselves are even good aligned though. Once we start taking motives into account, we fall into funfun slippery situations and convolutions that the alignment system was never meant to handle. Also we come into the fact that most adventurers are evil by the standards of putting their lives and the lives of those they care about above the lives of random strangers.

[Grumman]

Also we come into the fact that most adventurers are evil by the standards of putting their lives and the lives of those they care about above the lives of random strangers.

Nonsense. The strangers that most adventurers are killing are not innocents - they are bandits, slavers and warlords.

[Kylarra]

Nonsense. The strangers that most adventurers are killing are not innocents - they are bandits, slavers and warlords.

Or random monsters that happen to inhabit an area with phat l00tz.

[Nero24200]

True, but it's not alwayss random strangers. Going after a band of orc raiders is different than random folk, since, just by the simple fact that they're raiders, means that they loot, kill and pillage for their own ends, so killing them isn't an evil act.

At the end of the day, this person has infiltrated a group purely to betray them. He/she isn't putting their lives in danger out of revenge, or to remove a potential evil or problem from the world, it's to serve the ends of another evil creature. I would call evil, but as I said, given the circumstances it might only be minorlly evil to the point that it wouldn't shape alignment, but it requries the DM to really analyse the NPC and his/her motives and how he/she thinks.

[Kylarra]

Well my major point is, it's just one act, ostensibly, and it's under duress. At the end of the day, most adventurers have faced and done worse things without shifting alignments.

Is what he's doing evil? Well, it's certainly not a good act. Is it necessarily evil? Depends on how he goes about it. It could be considered a neutral act, the evil act of killing balanced out by the lives being saved. Or if he goes too far, it could be an evil act.


~~
Again, the point that I'm trying to get across is that he won't detect as evil. As far as the OP's question is concerned, he's still good.


Whatever happens after the fact is going to depend on what actually happens (if he succeeds the campaign will be over and it won't matter, so likely they'll catch him and depending on the makeup of the party either kill him, set him free or try to save whatever's being held hostage).

[Reluctance]

Like a lot of alignment corner cases, this sounds contrived. If the bad guy is strong enough to take out the PCs, it won't need a patsy to do its handiwork. If the bad guy would be thrashed by the PCs, the NPC's best bet is to spill the beans and hope that the heroes do the heroic thing. That, and if the trick is just to sneak a minion past a Detect Evil, there are spells to do that without the plan hinging on some unreliable outside party.

To the specific question, just having a moral crisis and contemplating an evil act under duress does not make one evil. A good character will take a long time to psych themselves up, though, will take a good bit of time and be incredibly obvious to anybody with any investment in Sense Motive.

[ericgrau]

Out of curiosity, here's a scenario:

A Good NPC is forced by an Evil NPC to infiltrate the PC party and murder the PC's and/or any innocents they have travelling with them [or some other evil act]. Let's say the Good NPC has a very good reason for obeying the Evil NPC [his family, hometown, nation, planet is being threatened, take your pick].

One of the suspicious PC's casts detect alignment -- what does he see? From my understanding, this spell should still reveal that the Good PC is good aligned, correct? A sense motive may get a little more out of him, but detect alignment itself won't reveal anything about his intentions?

-V

Precisely. And it's a DC 20 sense motive IIRC, which simply tells you that he's acting strange.

And it doesn't seem too contrived. It's the standard help me do evil or I kill your family dealy. The threatened guy is still a better option than the BBEG going himself because 1) The BBEG doesn't have to expend his own resources nor risk his own skin and 2) He's more likely to be successful at gaining the trust of the party, thus being able to significantly harm and/or hamper them even if he's weaker than a single PC.

[Sir_Elderberry]

I say Evil. Let me put it in another way. There's a man whose wife is dead, but he has acquired a special artifact that will bring her back. No negative energy, no universe-rending. It simply calls in a favor from the universe, maybe it alters causality or something. The point is that nothing evil occurs because of the wife coming back, for the thought experiment.

Now, let's say that scroll requires a death to fuel the spell. Is an NPC who is out to resurrect his dead wife by killing people Evil? I think most people would say so. It's a common enough backstory for villains, or at least sounds familiar to me. The fact that "well, he hasn't done it yet" doesn't change the fact that he is working towards that goal and you could build an adventure out of fighting this guy.

So, let's clarify the requirement. Make it "requires the death of someone who trusted the caster". Are you telling me that, just because this man is working through subterfuge, he's a better man the the guy who's just going to kidnap somebody and kill them off?

That said, I'd say that as soon as he shakes the BBEG's hand and agrees to it, REALLY agrees to it, not intending on defecting later, he's instantly in neutral territory. As soon as you start acting on that--planning attacks, lying to people to gain their trust so you can kill them later--you start sliding rapidly into Evil. Who cares what your motivations are? Every decent bad guy has motivations.

[Harperfan7]

Good people can't do anything evil, ever, period. No, not even for good reasons.

However, the NPC attacker will probably still ping as Good because it takes more than one evil act to become not good. Good people can **** up and still be good. It's consistency that will evil-ise him.

[Riffington]

Good people can't do anything evil, ever, period. No, not even for good reasons.

However, the NPC attacker will probably still ping as Good because it takes more than one evil act to become not good. Good people can **** up and still be good. It's consistency that will evil-ise him.

This would all be true if the evil deed were theft, gossip, or something like that. But in this case it's murder. Now, maybe sometimes a murder won't turn you from good to evil in one act. But this one is cold-blooded murder of innocents, requiring hours if not days of planning. Every hour committed to the plan (assuming he is committed to it as opposed to warring with himself about what he'll do at the critical moment, which would be different) drives the guy farther into evil.

[Tyndmyr]

True, but it's not alwayss random strangers. Going after a band of orc raiders is different than random folk, since, just by the simple fact that they're raiders, means that they loot, kill and pillage for their own ends, so killing them isn't an evil act.

At the end of the day, this person has infiltrated a group purely to betray them. He/she isn't putting their lives in danger out of revenge, or to remove a potential evil or problem from the world, it's to serve the ends of another evil creature. I would call evil, but as I said, given the circumstances it might only be minorlly evil to the point that it wouldn't shape alignment, but it requries the DM to really analyse the NPC and his/her motives and how he/she thinks.

You see a ten by ten room, with an orc guarding a chest. What do you do?

I betcha five electrum it's going to involve a dead orc, regardless of if there's a reason.

[Starbuck_II]

You see a ten by ten room, with an orc guarding a chest. What do you do?

I betcha five electrum it's going to involve a dead orc, regardless of if there's a reason.

I ask if the Orc is guarding the chest. If he says yes, then ask if so he is guarding the chest not what is in it?
Orc likely says yes.

Well, could I look inside? He says yes.
I look and sleight of hands take it all. Spot check is only to see the action.

[Dixieboy]

I ask if the Orc is guarding the chest. If he says yes, then ask if so he is guarding the chest not what is in it?
Orc likely says yes.

Well, could I look inside? He says yes.
I look and sleight of hands take it all. Spot check is only to see the action.

Ahem, looking inside would require you to get close to the chest, which he can't allow.

[Tyndmyr]

I ask if the Orc is guarding the chest. If he says yes, then ask if so he is guarding the chest not what is in it?
Orc likely says yes.

Well, could I look inside? He says yes.
I look and sleight of hands take it all. Spot check is only to see the action.

Still not a terribly good act. Assuming he lets you look inside, which is questionable.

[Vangor]

You see a ten by ten room, with an orc guarding a chest. What do you do?

I betcha five electrum it's going to involve a dead orc, regardless of if there's a reason.

People tend to operate under the assumption Orcs are evil, and this applies to both players and DMs. I mean, this simple room with an Orc does not give a good context such as if this is a room in a house in a city in a dungeon inhabited by hostile Orcs, and more.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Out of curiosity, here's a scenario:

A Good NPC is forced by an Evil NPC to infiltrate the PC party and murder the PC's and/or any innocents they have travelling with them [or some other evil act]. Let's say the Good NPC has a very good reason for obeying the Evil NPC [his family, hometown, nation, planet is being threatened, take your pick].

One of the suspicious PC's casts detect alignment -- what does he see? From my understanding, this spell should still reveal that the Good PC is good aligned, correct? A sense motive may get a little more out of him, but detect alignment itself won't reveal anything about his intentions?

-V

Sense Motive is the better choice, because Thought Crimes are (usually) not enough to change alignment.

Basically, until he murders an innocent (or attempts and fails to do so) he could, theoretically, stop at the last minute. Considering the gravity of imposing an Alignment shift, I'd hold it off until he actually does the deed.

Unlike TSR D&D, Detect Evil only shows Alignment, not intent, so unless you've already changed him over (which, IMHO, is premature) he'll show up as whatever he was before the coercion.