Powerful things to sell books?

[oxinabox]

Do you think WotC puts powerful things in Splat books to help sell them?

For example the new races from Ro* are all kinda powerful (if not always up to human/ strongheart halfling standards)

[Starbuck_II]

Sometimes, but otherwise it is stealth balancing like Bard.

[Cyanic]

Sounds like a good conspiracy theory ToB

[Zincorium]

I suspect it's more that certain authors enjoy a much higher or lower powered game than the average, and this tends to show up in their work. In addition, there's the possibility that they simply didn't realize something would be as weak or strong as it ends up being- the truenamer couldn't have been a deliberate calculation, but maybe the planar shepard fit right into the group it was *ahem* playtested in.

It's best to think of even official splatbooks as simply collections of homebrew material from people who are paid to do it. You're going to get a much more thorough take on something than you'd usually find online, but it's usefulness and potential to break the game are things you just have to judge on an individual basis.

[Set]

For the new classes, it seems like a bit of compensation as well. A new class has to face competition with classes that have a dozen or more different splatbooks worth of feats, spells, etc. and multiple threads worth of CharOps optimization tactics written up for them. If the new class (Dread Necro or Archivist, for instance) isn't strictly better than a core-only class, it's going to be dogmeat against a core class using splat content.

Then again, there are plenty of splatbook classes (Samurai, Healer, Warmage, Hexblade, etc.) that suck hard enough that they serve as counter examples.

I suspect it's not that splatbook material is overpowered, as that splatbook material contains a plethora of material, some of it overpowered, and some of it just as egregiously underpowered, but that the OP examples stick out a lot more than the feats, spells, etc. we look over and think, 'Worthless' before moving on to the Shivering Touches and Arcane Spellsurges.

[Tiktakkat]

Do you think WotC puts powerful things in Splat books to help sell them?

For example the new races from Ro* are all kinda powerful (if not always up to human/ strongheart halfling standards)

It is a bit more complex than that, but basically, yes.

First, there is the competition among most authors to make their thing (race, class, country, whatever) "cooler" than the thing the other authors are writing. That primarily translates as throwing more power at them.

Second, is untested synergy. The more stuff you add from a greater pool of authors who are not in constant contact, cross-referencing everything they write, the greater the chance, approaching 100%, that you get synergies between various basic elements (races, classes, feats, spells, and equipment) that produce results disproportionately powerful and thus destructive to the overall game balance.

Third, is basic power creep. Any time you look to expand the options in a game, you have to do something to make them attractive. This almost always translates as making them just a little bit more powerful than previous options.

Fourth, is raw giveaway. For the same reason it was decided that all books need crunch (meaning actual rules material), even the most basic background book, to drive sales, it is often decided that said crunch be more powerful than previous material to entice potential customers to "pay to play" "better" (meaning just more powerful) characters than anybody who does not purchase the new hotness.

The first two can be controlled by a good enough product line editor, as even the best authors give in to the temptation. (They just have the integrity to admit it.)
The third by a decent brand manager, who hires the right authors and editors in the first place.
The last is a corporate level decision, and thus the most difficult to control, or reverse once it begins. It is the game equivalent of jumping the shark.

[Sinfire Titan]

Do you think WotC puts powerful things in Splat books to help sell them?

For example the new races from Ro* are all kinda powerful (if not always up to human/ strongheart halfling standards)

Tiktakkat nailed it, because a perfectly balanced system ends up pretty bland when there's no difference between options. Introducing some power creep, or simply leaving it entirely unbalanced (Marvel VS Capcom 2, anyone?) is a way to sell product, so long as the balance is semi-maintained. 3.5 sold well without even realizing the power gap though. 4E is more genre aware about this, and seeks to strike a balance inside itself (hence why Orbizards aren't getting nerfed; they're powerful, but have a weakness that prevents them from being universally used).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Also remember that splatbooks are not more broken than core. Contingency is Core. 3 of the big 5(6) are core. Humans are core. Splatbooks are powerful, yes, but if a class is both splatbook and weaker than a core alternative, no one will ever bother with it(Samurai etc).

[Aldizog]

Tiktakkit nailed it, but I'd also add that versatility is power. Additional options, even if they aren't flat-out more powerful than existing options, increase the power level anyway.

Add "celestial crocodile" to the SMIII list, and the good cleric now has an option against aquatic opponents that he didn't have before. Add "frostball" as a 3rd-level wizard spell (or energy substitution), and the wizard now has an option against a roomful of azer. Add a 1d12 martial bludgeoning two-handed weapon, and the barbarian now has a superior option for fighting skeletons.

[Tiktakkat]

Tiktakkit nailed it, but I'd also add that versatility is power. Additional options, even if they aren't flat-out more powerful than existing options, increase the power level anyway.

That is part of what I meant by unintended synergy. Never mind bizarro combos like the locate city bomb or Pun-Pun, as you say, versatility as just simple options is, ultimately, another form of power creep.

[KitsuneKionchi]

Some things are stronger than others.

Therefore more things will be stronger and weaker than other things.

Its inevitable in a game where you can quantify strength.

Would you buy a book with character options (feats, etc...) that were weaker than those you were already using? Well, perhaps if they were more flavorful. But then we have the argument:

"Is Wizard's saving its best flavor for Splat books?"

[Tyndmyr]

I don't feel they intentionally use additional power to sell books(MTG does, though. Definitely).

Here's why...I can go back to early third ed books, and find broken, cheesy stuff. Sometimes this stuff has been reprinted in a less broken form in 3.5 books. Doing this isn't consistent with adding power. Likewise, there are a great amount of ridiculously weak options in newer books.

Now sure, power level does creep up eventually with volume, due to mistakes made by designers, unintended synergy, and the value of choice. I would say that only additional choice is intended, and that this is generally done in such a way as to affect power level least.

It's pretty telling that most of the broken spells are still from core, after all.

[sonofzeal]

It's been often stated, but I'll say it again: most of the really powerful stuff is in core. Most splatbook material is actually rather weaker than core in general, with a few exceptions (ToB, Complete Champion). Stuff that's objectively better than the average level of Core stuff is fairly rare, and generally peaks out well below the best of Core stuff.

The only reason splatbook stuff can seem better is because players tend to only choose the stuff that's decent, and because they'll choose the stuff that synergizes with what they already have from core.

For example, a Druid will Wildshape into a Fleshraker - is this OP because Fleshrakers are OP, or because Wildshape is OP? Or is it a bit of both?

For another example, a Barbarian ubercharger does a couple hundred points of damage in a single round - is this because Power Attack is OP, because Shock Trooper is OP, because Leap Attack is OP, or because Rage is OP? Or do a lot of strong pieces add up to something impressive?


In general, powercreep is a myth. There's certainly the occasional "fix" like Tome of Battle that brings melee types closer in line with spellcasters, and there's certainly the occasional poorly edited/tested book like Complete Champion that throw a bunch of stuff at the wall to see what sticks (I generally encourage ToB and ban Champion), but those are the exceptions. Splatbooks are generally on the weaker side, not the stronger side.

[AshDesert]

There really isn't so much a power creep as there is players having more very good options to choose from than in Core. What I'm saying is, with each splat book there is a spread of Crap Material, Poor Material, Average Material, Good Material, and Excellent Material. Those can be spells, feats, whatever. Just options to build you're character.

The reason that non-Core play can be observed to produce better characters than Core play is simple. In Core, you run out of Excellent and Good material. A Core-only Fighter runs out of useful feats, and ends up using a lot of filler, whereas there are several non-Core feats that can take up the space of those formerly filler slots, thereby creating more powerful characters. There is still plenty of Crap in splatbooks, it's just that, unlike a Core game, you aren't forced to take anything bad as filler at high levels.

[aje8]

I think the flaw in this theory relies on a fundamental assumption: WotC knows what is balanced. I honestly don't think they do.

Look at Wizard. Now look at Fighter. Notice how they're both core. Notice how WotC thought core was balanced. Realize that WotC doesn't really get 3.5 balance. Yes, they fixed evertyhing in 4.0, but they really didn't 'get' balance in 3.5. They created whatever they wanted from a fluff perspective and did only minimal balancing.

Because WotC doesn't really understand balance, they print both Shadowcraft Mage and Green Star Adept. They print both Ninja and Archivist. They don't really get it.

[KitsuneKionchi]

While I don't think Splat books are stronger, wouldn't it make sense if they were.

More books are likely to be bought by more experienced groups. Meaning more experienced GMs. Meaning GMs who are better prepared to deal with more powerful characters. Right?

[oxinabox]

I think the flaw in this theory relies on a fundamental assumption: WotC knows what is balanced. I honestly don't think they do.

Look at Wizard. Now look at Fighter. Notice how they're both core. Notice how WotC thought core was balanced. Realize that WotC doesn't really get 3.5 balance. Yes, they fixed evertyhing in 4.0, but they really didn't 'get' balance in 3.5. They created whatever they wanted from a fluff perspective and did only minimal balancing.

Because WotC doesn't really understand balance, they print both Shadowcraft Mage and Green Star Adept. They print both Ninja and Archivist. They don't really get it.

with 3.0 and earlier, TSR and WoTC, didn't try to pretend they were making a balanced game.
Why? Because a wizard throwing balls of HellFire has got to do more (total) damage that a fighter hitting you with a sword.
If it didn't then that would be stupid, right?

I'm not argueing that most of the broken is in splatbooks, or that every new book is over all more powerful.

I'm saying that in many book they put one really decent thing in that makes you want it:
Eg Raptorian, Illumninum, arcivist, factoum, golith,

Then again there's PHBII: Duskblade, Knight, and beguiler all in one book.

[Tyndmyr]

I've also seen books in which pretty much nothing can be described as overpowered. Rules Compendium, for example. It's pretty much just a handy tool, and you'd really have to stretch to find anything actually broken by it.

Other books are packed with goodies. It just really, really varies. It strikes me of less of an overall plan than "Hey, this idea sounds cool. Lets make a book on dragons! We haven't had dragons in a book for a while have we? Eh, we cant be bothered to look, so lets have a go at it."

[oxinabox]

Other books are packed with goodies. It just really, really varies. It strikes me of less of an overall plan than "Hey, this idea sounds cool. Lets make a book on dragons! We haven't had dragons in a book for a while have we? Eh, we cant be bothered to look, so lets have a go at it."

With dragons, that is so true.
Dagonimicon, Dragon magic, Races of the Dragon, umm the whole damn dragonlance setting...

There are so many differnent ways to make yoru character more dragonic you could never fit them all in one build.

[Pika...]

Definitely.

Just like Paladium. In Rifts, whoever has the newest splatbook wins. I imagine it's too easy a business strategy for WotC to pass up.

[Haven]

Other books are packed with goodies. It just really, really varies. It strikes me of less of an overall plan than "Hey, this idea sounds cool. Lets make a book on dragons! We haven't had dragons in a book for a while have we? Eh, we cant be bothered to look, so lets have a go at it."

Well, it is in the name of the game...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

With dragons, that is so true.
Dagonimicon, Dragon magic, Races of the Dragon, umm the whole damn dragonlance setting...

There are so many differnent ways to make yoru character more dragonic you could never fit them all in one build.

I prefer turning your character into a Bear.

Specifically, a Were-Bear Shifter Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Were-touched Master(Bear). You turn into a Bear, turn into a Bear/Bear hybrid, then take on the aspects of a Bear.

[Dracomorph]

I prefer turning your character into a Bear.

Specifically, a Were-Bear Shifter Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Were-touched Master(Bear). You turn into a Bear, turn into a Bear/Bear hybrid, then take on the aspects of a Bear.

I'm watching you, tallkid.

[bosssmiley]

Do you think WotC puts powerful things in Splat books to help sell them?

Does splatbook bloat exist?

Is the Pope a bear? Do Catholics $#!% in the woods?

[Kurald Galain]

Do you think WotC puts powerful things in Splat books to help sell them?

Yes. If everything in splatbook X was weaker than in the PHB, it would not sell well. It is not practically possible to have everything on the exact same power level as in the PHB. Since it's not desirable to have everything weaker, and not possible to have everything equal, it becomes inevitable that some things will be stronger.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I think the flaw in this theory relies on a fundamental assumption: WotC knows what is balanced. I honestly don't think they do.

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

I find it more pleasing to my mind to believe WotC is incompetent than to believe that they're the Big Bad Corporation deliberately introducing power creep to breed a generation of munchkins who need the newest books to win.

[DragoonWraith]

Gotta go with the Hanlon's on this.

Also, really, again, Core >> everything else in terms of imbalance. If you banned Core, with the possible exception of the feats (which were generally weak and are often used outside of Core for pre-reqs), you'd probably have a more balanced game. Probably grab the Bard and maybe the Barbarian since they have unique class features and are the closest to balanced (or at least, are once you get other books that help them out). Wu Jen, or even better Psion, replaces Wizard, Favored Soul replaces Cleric, Totemist (probably) replaces Druid, etc etc.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

With dragons, that is so true.
Dagonimicon, Dragon magic, Races of the Dragon, umm the whole damn dragonlance setting...

There are so many differnent ways to make yoru character more dragonic you could never fit them all in one build.

Now this, we need to do! Extra points the more 'dragon' words you find in your classes and abilities

[AstralFire]

The winner gets an all-expense paid Falcon Kick to the head.

[Tiktakkat]

Also remember that splatbooks are not more broken than core. Contingency is Core.

And yet Contingency started as expansion material.

For example, a Druid will Wildshape into a Fleshraker - is this OP because Fleshrakers are OP, or because Wildshape is OP? Or is it a bit of both?

For another example, a Barbarian ubercharger does a couple hundred points of damage in a single round - is this because Power Attack is OP, because Shock Trooper is OP, because Leap Attack is OP, or because Rage is OP? Or do a lot of strong pieces add up to something impressive?

Fleshrakers are not core.
Shock Trooper and Leap Attack are not core either.

So is it the core material, or the splatbook material in both of those examples?
Those are however further excellent examples of synergy and how it can be destructive to game balance.

As for Hanlon's Razor, it fails because it allows only for stupidity or malice as options.
Why do WotC authors, editors, or brand managers have to either hate gamers or be incompetent in order for them to incorporate power creep in the game?
They could just be choosing a different business and game development model. They may not be making the choices I like or would make, but I do not assume any negative intent or ability just because of that.