[3.5] Metamagic rod question

[Choco]

When using a metamagic rod with a spell that you also enhanced with your own metamagic, do you use the spell's level or its increased spell slot determining what kind of rod you can use? For example, if I cast a Fireball (lvl 3 spell) using a Maximize metamagic rod, and also apply my own Widen metamagic to it (making it use up a 6th level slot), would I be able to use a lesser rod (rules say they can be used with SPELLS of 3rd level or lower, doesnt say spell slot specifically) or would I have to use a normal rod (up to 6th level, and a widened fireball uses up a 6th level slot). On that note, which one would be applied first, the rod or your own metamagic?

[Douglas]

Unless you are using Heighten Spell, the rod required is based on the base level of the spell.

Aside from Heighten + a rod, I am not aware of any situation where the order of application even matters, and even for that one it only matters for determining if the rod can be applied, not for what the effect is.

[Choco]

Cool thanks! I was really only concerned with the order if metamagic rods did go off of spell slot used as opposed to base spell level, but the fact that heighten spell gets applied before a rod even answers that question.

And while on the topic of metamagic rods... are there rules anywhere that allow for the creation of custom metamagic rods to take care of omitted metamagics, like create a Widen metamagic rod and specifically how much it would cost?

[Alteran]

Cool thanks! I was really only concerned with the order if metamagic rods did go off of spell slot used as opposed to base spell level, but the fact that heighten spell gets applied before a rod even answers that question.

And while on the topic of metamagic rods... are there rules anywhere that allow for the creation of custom metamagic rods to take care of omitted metamagics, like create a Widen metamagic rod and specifically how much it would cost?

If widen is +1 (like I think it is) just use the same cost as another metamagic rod of a +1 metamagic feat. The core rods alone give you +1, +2, +3, and +4. You might even be able to determine the formula they use to set the costs, so you can price metamagic rods of metamagic feats that are greater than +4 (or less than +1). There might not be a formula, but it seems likely.

[Choco]

If widen is +1 (like I think it is) just use the same cost as another metamagic rod of a +1 metamagic feat. The core rods alone give you +1, +2, +3, and +4. You might even be able to determine the formula they use to set the costs, so you can price metamagic rods of metamagic feats that are greater than +4 (or less than +1). There might not be a formula, but it seems likely.

Widen is +3, so it would be same as maximize then... Thanks for the info, I'll get to dropping widened webs and black tentacles here shortly

[Tyndmyr]

Cool thanks! I was really only concerned with the order if metamagic rods did go off of spell slot used as opposed to base spell level, but the fact that heighten spell gets applied before a rod even answers that question.

And while on the topic of metamagic rods... are there rules anywhere that allow for the creation of custom metamagic rods to take care of omitted metamagics, like create a Widen metamagic rod and specifically how much it would cost?

For metamagic, caster determines order of application. Since rod metamagics do not add levels, you'll want to apply them first, unless you're using metamagic boosting cheese.

I like the idea of having rods for all the different metamagics, based on the level adjustment. The current rods are one of the more useful classes of things for casters to wield, and I'd love having more variety in em.

[taltamir]

If widen is +1 (like I think it is) just use the same cost as another metamagic rod of a +1 metamagic feat. The core rods alone give you +1, +2, +3, and +4. You might even be able to determine the formula they use to set the costs, so you can price metamagic rods of metamagic feats that are greater than +4 (or less than +1). There might not be a formula, but it seems likely.

rod of silent enlarge and extend are all 11,000 gp. They are +1
rod of empower is 32500, it is +2
rod of quicken is 75500, it is +4.

WOTC always uses the formula of (Bonus ^ 2) * Constant (based on type of item) = GP cost.
With, sometimes giving discount or price increases based on arbitrary decisions by them.
Sometimes those discounts also have a formula.

The regular formula does not work. it would require a +2 rod to be 44,000gp.
However, the formula might take into account the caster level. 3rd level spells are CL5, 6th level spells are CL11, and 9th level spells CL17

Ok I am just gonna give up and say they hand waved it

[Tyndmyr]

It looks vaguely exponential...I tried several calculations that all got quite close, but none of them hit it exactly. Id guess that someone jacked up math while pricing them. Probably on the Empower. Oh well.

I'd ballpark a +4 at a bit over 150,000 gold.

[sofawall]

WOTC always uses the formula of (Bonus ^ 2) * Constant (based on type of item) = GP cost.
With, sometimes giving discount or price increases based on arbitrary decisions by them.
Sometimes those discounts also have a formula.

So, basically "WotC always uses this formula, except when they decide not to."