[4e] Sneak Attack with a real bow?

[Hashmir]

I have a question for you. I have an Elven Archer Ranger, who will soon be using a Greatbow as his primary. I thought it might be nice to take the Rogue multiclass feat for the Thievery (which would be nice for the party). However, I noticed that it does only works with daggers, crossbows, and shurikens.

So, is there any way at all to deal sneak attack damage with a Greatbow, or even any regular bow? I mean, it almost certainly isn't worth it, but I'm honestly just curious at this point.

[Mando Knight]

So, is there any way at all to deal sneak attack damage with a Greatbow, or even any regular bow? I mean, it almost certainly isn't worth it, but I'm honestly just curious at this point.

No, there isn't.

[Pyron]

No, there isn't.

Pretty much, you're options are:

1. Take the Skill Training: Thievery, if you are just looking for the skill.
2. Use a crossbow - Ranger powers work well with them.
3. As the DM to house rule a feat: "Sneak Attack Archery"

[Hashmir]

That's pretty much what I figured. I guess I was just hoping for some strange string of feats like "use bows as a crossbow" or somesuch. Thanks for the info.

[Guy]

You could always use a crossbow and say it's a bow. Not a huge mechanical difference if you use a large one.

[falconflicker]

You could houserule a feat like those in Martial Power that grant racial weapons the ability to be used for Rogue Powers and Sneak Attack.

They tend to make Sneak Attack do 1 die less than normal, but an Elf Rogue feat that allows you to use a Bow as a Crossbow, only dealing 1 die less damage could be workable.

[Nai_Calus]

Silly OP, don't you know that even in 4e martial classes don't get nice things?

Seriously though, I refuse to ever make a rogue in 4e for that very reason. Ugh.

Maybe Martial Power 2 will fix it.

...Yeah just like Divine Power gave sooo many new options for Eladrin Clerics. -_-;

[Hashmir]

Frankly, I wouldn't bother using a feat for it anyway -- it would basically be spending one feat for Thievery and another for Sneak Attack (1/encounter). Much more efficient to focus on Ranger damage output. Not to mention that I just can't see a woodsy Elven Ranger using a crossbow, and the minor action to load sort of screws up Hunter's Quarry (and why spend a third feat to load for free?).

Frankly, I don't know why you can sneak attack with a crossbow, sling, or thrown dagger, but not with a regular bow.

[Worira]

Pfft, sneak attack with a bow? Next thing you know you'll want to garrote people or throw them without a knife.

[Hashmir]

And now rogues must run around with wannabe guns if they like to shoot people...

So sad. Haley can't change to 4e!

[Tiki Snakes]

I'd say as you're not even a primary rogue, it's not a huge issue, and for the 1/encounter use of sneak attack, probably not worth spending a feat on, personally.

But if I was to propose a way to get sneak attack with bows, I'd model it on the Dwarven 'tunnel fighter' racial feat, that allows them to sneak with 1 handed hammers and axes.

Basically, you'd gain the ability to sneak attack when using (either shortbows, or bows in general) in exchange for losing 1 dice of sneak when you do. (The tunnel fighter works this way, you gain the better weapon damage dice, and lose 1 of sneak.)

So for a feat, you'd be using a bow to gain an extra 1d6 once per encounter, unless multiclass rogues sneak attack ever raises in number, (it'd always be 1 less when using the bow, though.)

[Kurald Galain]

I have a question for you. I have an Elven Archer Ranger, who will soon be using a Greatbow as his primary. I thought it might be nice to take the Rogue multiclass feat for the Thievery (which would be nice for the party). However, I noticed that it does only works with daggers, crossbows, and shurikens.

There are other multiclass feats that let you take Thievery that may be more useful to you.

By RAW, there is no way to sneak attack with a normal bow. On the other hand, it would not be particularly unbalancing if this were allowed. Compare to e.g. double swords, which are allowed as a rogue weapon, and are much worse.

[Artanis]

Rogue is pretty much the only real multiclass option that shooty Rangers have at the moment...and bow-users don't get that option.

That's why I'm so excited about the Seeker. Even if it sucks horribly, it'll at least give bow-users something to look at.

[Moff Chumley]

Well, depending on the DM, there's no reason why you can't just ask him to let you use sneak attack with your bow. It doesn't unbalance the game in any way, it just helps you keep your character's flavor intact.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Well, depending on the DM, there's no reason why you can't just ask him to let you use sneak attack with your bow. It doesn't unbalance the game in any way, it just helps you keep your character's flavor intact.

I'm willing to believe that it would somehow unbalance the game. I'm not sure how, but I just feel like the designers got rid of bow sneak attacks for a reason. Although I can't figure out why they got rid of short bow sneak attacks -- they've always been a thief weapon, and the dmg (d8) is the same as the best rogue melee weapons (double sword, rapier).

[Hashmir]

I'm willing to believe that it would somehow unbalance the game. I'm not sure how, but I just feel like the designers got rid of bow sneak attacks for a reason. Although I can't figure out why they got rid of short bow sneak attacks -- they've always been a thief weapon, and the dmg (d8) is the same as the best rogue melee weapons (double sword, rapier).

I'm not sure I buy it. They get to use crossbows and light blades (which lets Eladrin use longswords with a feat). And the superior crossbow uses a d10. Frankly, the only thing I see it doing is annoying me.

[Alteran]

They get to use crossbows and light blades (which lets Eladrin use longswords with a feat).

As opposed to getting rapiers with a feat?

However, I agree that letting Rogues sneak attack with a bow wouldn't be unbalancing. Overall, the greatbow is no better than the superior crossbow. In fact, for rogues the crossbow might be better in most situations. +1 accuracy is better than +1 average damage, and spending a minor action to load isn't as big a deal when their bonus damage feature doesn't consume an action.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure how, but I just feel like the designers got rid of bow sneak attacks for a reason.

They did. Only that reason isn't game balance, the reason is that a longbow doesn't match the character archetype that the rogue class is intended to be.

Rogue is pretty much the only real multiclass option that shooty Rangers have at the moment...

How about Barbarian? +2 damage for 1 encounter per day is tasty.

[Sir Homeslice]

That's why I'm so excited about the Seeker. Even if it sucks horribly, it'll at least give bow-users something to look at.

Seekers may not be bouncing off the walls incredible, but they are pretty awesome.

[Hal]

Well, though Rogues don't often have much use for their minor action, crossbows have the drawback of being two-handed weapons with a load time, and a Rogue will still have to spend a feat to even use one.

If it were me, I'd probably allow, for a feat, sneak attack with the short bow. However, I would also rule that the sneak attack damage can't be inflicted at greater than 20 square range.

I suspect that the exception there is either an oversight or an attempt to keep players from sneak attacking, with no penalties, at longer ranges.

[Hashmir]

I can almost see why they wouldn't want rogues sneak attacking at 25/50 squares with a greatbow, but wouldn't that just make the rogue into a horribly ineffective ranger? I mean, rangers already get to deal 1d6 extra damage just by taking their minor action to point at someone. A sneak-attacking bow rogue would just do that with much more difficulty, and without being in range for anything else that might be useful.

Plus, they can already do it with a superior crossbow at 20/40 squares, so I'm hard-pressed to see how it's anything more than a flavor disagreement.

[Artanis]

How about Barbarian? +2 damage for 1 encounter per day is tasty.

*checks*

It is pretty tasty, especially with the zillion and one attacks that Rangers tend to get. There's a problem though: Barbarians use STR for their attack powers, so there's almost nothing to power-swap for, which is much of the point of multiclassing. Using a multiclass feat solely for the bonus makes it not really be multiclassing, but just another feat.

That's why I point to the Rogue and Seldarine Dedicate as shooty Ranger MC options: you can actually power-swap with those. There's almost nothing else that a shooty Ranger can power-swap for, especially if you look at classes that use DEX and/or WIS as their MC prereqs.



Note: I tend to word things poorly, so try to take what I mean, not the specifics of how I say it

[Jack_Banzai]

Pfft, sneak attack with a bow? Next thing you know you'll want to garrote people or throw them without a knife.

Garrote Training, Garrote Novice, Garrote Expert, Garrote Specialist feats. Dragon #373.

Garrote: Superior weapon, also in Dragon #373.

[Guinea Anubis]

If I was the DM I would let you do it for a feat.

[incubus5075]

How about this. keep your wisdom up with your dex and multiclass into Avenger. Take the paragon path that gives you wings. It gives you some melee attacks that are wisdom based, the ability to fly into a tree, on a ledge, etc and rain hell from above, and an elf with wings with a great bow just seems diabolic. It is a class that I use to use.

[Hashmir]

I did see the barbarian feat, and it is quite nice even without planning to multiclass -- precisely because of all the attacks one dishes out. And the winged archer build also looks pretty cool. The only problem is that I'm not really trying to optimize my damage output so much as make my character more like I want him to be.

Specifically, I was (originally) looking to see if I could get the thievery skill trained, because the party could use it and I have the highest WIS. However, I don't think it's quite worth me spending one feat on Skill Training, which would otherwise be spent on something more useful. So, I looked at the multiclass skills. Thievery is only a class skill for two classes in the game: Rogue and Warlock.

Obviously the warlock is right out, as it fits neither mechanically nor flavor-wise. On the other hand, a tiny bit of dabbling in rogue makes plenty of sense for a sneaky sniping archer. Except that I can't use the bonus to the feat, and actually multiclassing wouldn't work for the same reason -- bows aren't rogue weapons. The powers don't support them.

So I guess I'm just sad.

[Blackfang108]

I did see the barbarian feat, and it is quite nice even without planning to multiclass -- precisely because of all the attacks one dishes out. And the winged archer build also looks pretty cool. The only problem is that I'm not really trying to optimize my damage output so much as make my character more like I want him to be.

Specifically, I was (originally) looking to see if I could get the thievery skill trained, because the party could use it and I have the highest WIS. However, I don't think it's quite worth me spending one feat on Skill Training, which would otherwise be spent on something more useful. So, I looked at the multiclass skills. Thievery is only a class skill for two classes in the game: Rogue and Warlock.

Obviously the warlock is right out, as it fits neither mechanically nor flavor-wise. On the other hand, a tiny bit of dabbling in rogue makes plenty of sense for a sneaky sniping archer. Except that I can't use the bonus to the feat, and actually multiclassing wouldn't work for the same reason -- bows aren't rogue weapons. The powers don't support them.

So I guess I'm just sad.

Did you check the MP Multiclass Rogue feat? I can't remember the difference, but there is one.

[Mando Knight]

Did you check the MP Multiclass Rogue feat? I can't remember the difference, but there is one.

Yes, the one where you add your CHA to AC against single opportunity attack is slightly more useful for a Haley-wannabe than 1/encounter bow-less Sneak Attack.

[Hashmir]

Did you check the MP Multiclass Rogue feat? I can't remember the difference, but there is one.

Thanks for the tip. Nothing useful, unfortunately. There's one that gives stealth and "ruthless ruffian," one that gives bluff/intimidate and lets you add CHA to AC (1/enc), and one that gives you first strike if you're paragon multiclassing rogue.

With the way they handle multiclassing, it all seems very expensive with regard to feats and abilities. Are there just certain classes that benefit more from the added flexibility than from straight power gain, or am I just not thinking through it?

[Mando Knight]

The single feat spent to MC into another class is almost always worth it, since you get Skill Training for free (unless you want to MC into a class with a feat that's locked into giving you a skill you've already got...). Power swap is occasionally useful, such as for a Strength Paladin's level 9 Daily if Divine Power isn't allowed.

Paragon multiclassing, however, is almost never worth it, unfortunately.