A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    First, with a good weapon of legacy, yes, the lvl 20 fighter has a reasonable chance against the wizard. Personally, i like the fighter variant of the manual of the planes, with the ability to prevent teleportation and dispell magic, but you need to be an outsider to qualify. Mordenkainens disjunction can wreak a havok in a fighter, true enought. So, having a good mount, like some Dragon or Demon, can help.

    Second, i guess the most damage a lvl 5 wizard could do is probably by throwing something very heavy at the fighter, for 20d6 damage. With shrink item or levitation, its doable. But my money is in the fighter.

    Also, does the lvl 20 wizard wants to try his sense motive against a lvl 20 Bard's bluff check? not even trying, i can easilly get +36 in this skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrakan View Post
    Given that V's efforts held a key defensive position while Belkar primarily killed people attempting to scale the walls, which didn't appear to stop people from actually reaching parapet anyway, that's a bit doubtful. Admittedly, Belkar's slaughter was apparently enough to warrant inclusion in the general's report to Redcloak, but the hobgoblin numbers make Belkar's killings kind of inconsequential compared to keeping the Azurites from having to engage a force three times their number on an even footing.

    That said, V's achievements were dependent on fighters supported by clerics. If he'd tried to hold them off on his own he wouldn't have got very far.
    Well, i would not call turning the eye of fear and flame as an inconsequential action. Belkar was in the middle of the enemy, without support, and got the upper hand over a considerable enemy asset, at the same time sparing a large amount of azurite soldiers and slaugthering the enemy. Alone, this double deal probably puts his contributions to the battle very close to V. And he saved the order from the incoming arrows.
    Last edited by Slayn82; 2009-10-27 at 06:32 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    Nah, not if I built the fighter Give yourself 11 ranks of Use Magic Device, an item that grants +15 to UMD, and load up on scrolls. Again, wealth will dominate.

    IMO, the Wizard really has 3 main end-game tricks up his sleeve: Gate, Shapechange, and Foresight, all through of which are 9th level spells. Gate is just a poorly designed spell because it allows you to get a monster with twice your caster level in HD. Shapechange, like all spells in the Polymorph line, suffer from the problem of being more powerful as more monsters are revealed in MM1,2,3,4. Foresight is somewhat up to DM discretion.
    Ah, I see...
    Well, many would object that UMD means that if you need a broken skill to mimic a spellcaster, to compensate the lack in your class and to have a chance, you're proving the Wizard's point.
    UMD to me is fine, but is hardly definitive. The wizard can escape, find a secure shelter (rope trick, etc.) and prepare an invisible counterstrike.
    A scroll of forcage is fine, and with a dimensional lock (to be sure), screws the fighter.
    Well, this thread is really derailing.
    That said, I'm not arguing the utility of the fighter in a group, Imo is fundamental, but one Vs one, the casters have too many superior options.

    EDIT: more on topic, I'm really glad that in OotS the potential superiority of magic is limited and often screwed by bad tactics or stupid actions. Gives to me a great sense of "reality". And I'm almost sure that will be the poor fighter that will kick the lich's ass...
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2009-10-27 at 06:38 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    Ah, I see...
    Well, many would object that UMD means that if you need a broken skill to mimic a spellcaster, to compensate the lack in your class and to have a chance, you're proving the Wizard's point.
    UMD to me is fine, but is hardly definitive. The wizard can escape, find a secure shelter (rope trick, etc.) and prepare an invisible counterstrike.
    A scroll of forcage is fine, and with a dimensional lock (to be sure), screws the fighter.
    Well, this thread is really derailing.
    That said, I'm not arguing the utility of the fighter in a group, Imo is fundamental, but one Vs one, the casters have too many superior options.
    I don't think UMD is a broken skill... the DCs are high enough that it's pretty hard to muster a +20 check at low levels to guarantee success.

    Also, UMD doesn't only allow you access to Wizard spells, it also allows you access to Cleric, Druid, and Sorceror spells (I'm particularly fond of the ones in Races of the Dragon... Wings of Flurry for Nd6 force damage with no cap, plus a stun effect!). My point is that with a sufficient wealth edge, any class advantage can be overcome via UMD, which I would argue is good design.

    The Wizard can't escape, because Moment of Prescience (wiz 8) gives the Fighter a +20 to his Initiative bonus. Plus, the Fighter, with his orgy of feats, easily has Improved Initiative and whatever other initiative booster feats from splatbooks. That, and, let's say, Destruction (cleric 7) means game over for the Wizard.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    The Wizard can't escape, because Moment of Prescience (wiz 8) gives the Fighter a +20 to his Initiative bonus. Plus, the Fighter, with his orgy of feats, easily has Improved Initiative and whatever other initiative booster feats from splatbooks. That, and, let's say, Destruction (cleric 7) means game over for the Wizard.
    Also the wizard have IE (going first is terribly a good thing for him), and probably will have a better dex than your fighter.
    The wizard escapes simply because you've got no way to bypass his contingency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    Also the wizard have IE (going first is terribly a good thing for him), and probably will have a better dex than your fighter.
    The wizard escapes simply because you've got no way to bypass his contingency.
    What? Why would a Wizard have better DEX than a fighter? All of the Wizard's stat-ups are going to INT, while the fighter can have them going to DEX. Plus, the lvl 20 fighter can easily afford a +6 Gloves of DEX, while the lvl 13 wizard (110k total wealth) is going to think twice before spending a third of it on the Gloves of DEX. Also, the Fighter can buy a Tome of +5 innate DEX (138.5k), which the wizard won't be able to afford. That +5 and the extra +2 from lvl 16 and 20, and you're looking at your wizard being behind by at least a +3 on the initiative roll. And that's not even counting the Moment of Prescience.

    Contingency on what? Teleport if you see a beefy guy? I mean, you're not allowed to metagame and say Teleport contingent on seeing a lvl 20 character, because a character's level isn't written on his face. Contingent on being thrown into an arena against someone wearing armor? You'll be fleeing against a lot of level 1 fighters then...

    EDIT: If you mean Contingency teleport if you are dropped to 1/2 HP, contingency works after the event triggering it. Meaning you'd eat the Destruction spell, or the Pouncing Power Attacking Fighter attacks, before it activates. So you'd have a corpse teleported to your hideout.
    Last edited by ghostaxe; 2009-10-27 at 07:06 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Could not agree anymore with you, ghostaxe also, for those wizards who take craft contingent spell, the same reasoning applies, even if they have a bunch more of contingencies.

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    for every person that considers a fighter a bad class, there is another who thinks the wizard is better off getting scratched out since he doesnt do anything anyway :P

    all of this is highly situational, most of the arguements here assume the wizard knows whats comming and has plenty of time to prepare, wich is a very important part of being a wizard. also some here are assuming the wizard and the figher dual while others compare their value to a full party.

    but forgetting all the powerplay ( people who like that the most are better off playing computer games instead of dnd, it gives them more of what they want since its completly devoted to combat) its also a lot of fun to ROLEPLAY a fighter, in that, i could say its better then a wizard its all depending on the player ofc, but usually its the wizard playing he straight man, and the fighter providing comedy :)

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    What? Why would a Wizard have better DEX than a fighter? All of the Wizard's stat-ups are going to INT, while the fighter can have them going to DEX. Plus, the lvl 20 fighter can easily afford a +6 Gloves of DEX, while the lvl 13 wizard (110k total wealth) is going to think twice before spending a third of it on the Gloves of DEX. Also, the Fighter can buy a Tome of +5 innate DEX (138.5k), which the wizard won't be able to afford. That +5 and the extra +2 from lvl 16 and 20, and you're looking at your wizard being behind by at least a +3 on the initiative roll. And that's not even counting the Moment of Prescience.

    Contingency on what? Teleport if you see a beefy guy? I mean, you're not allowed to metagame and say Teleport contingent on seeing a lvl 20 character, because a character's level isn't written on his face. Contingent on being thrown into an arena against someone wearing armor? You'll be fleeing against a lot of level 1 fighters then...

    EDIT: If you mean Contingency teleport if you are dropped to 1/2 HP, contingency works after the event triggering it. Meaning you'd eat the Destruction spell, or the Pouncing Power Attacking Fighter attacks, before it activates. So you'd have a corpse teleported to your hideout.
    I suggest you to open a thread on this topic in the roleplaying games forum, it's more suited there. It would be interesting and we wouldn't waste posts in this thread.

    That said, some brief notes:
    On dex: with 7 lev. of differences, maybe you're right, merely for the money... but the fighter usually invest in strenght and con, and his 3rd characteristic isn't dex... if he really wanna count on UMD. An high dex is also useless if you wear an armor, unless you're going to the celestial armor.
    Wizard invest on Int, then on Con OR Dex (for AC, to hit with rays, initiative, etc). I would go for Dex, and Con for third.

    The contingency can be setted in the line of "if someone attacks me in melee" or something similar. I assure you that on the roleplaying forum, you'll find Contingencies virtually unattackables. Not counting (outside core) the horribles Craft spell contingency or Celerity (at this point, the wizard wins initiative, regardless any of your effort).
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriForce View Post
    all of this is highly situational, most of the arguements here assume the wizard knows whats comming and has plenty of time to prepare, wich is a very important part of being a wizard. also some here are assuming the wizard and the figher dual while others compare their value to a full party.
    Dont' get me wrong: Wiz. and fighter ARE complemental. The group is OK until they work togheter.

    I don't like PC vs PC and arena, but if someone thinks that a fighter can beat alone a wizard, I disagree (and the wizard, as grows up in level, tends to be always prepared, because he'll have a large repertoire of spells and utilities for any occasion, targeting different things).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    I suggest you to open a thread on this topic in the roleplaying games forum, it's more suited there. It would be interesting and we wouldn't waste posts in this thread.

    That said, some brief notes:
    On dex: with 7 lev. of differences, maybe you're right, merely for the money... but the fighter usually invest in strenght and con, and his 3rd characteristic isn't dex... if he really wanna count on UMD. An high dex is also useless if you wear an armor, unless you're going to the celestial armor.
    Wizard invest on Int, then on Con OR Dex (for AC, to hit with rays, initiative, etc). I would go for Dex, and Con for third.

    The contingency can be setted in the line of "if someone attacks me in melee" or something similar. I assure you that on the roleplaying forum, you'll find Contingencies virtually unattackables. Not counting (outside core) the horribles Craft spell contingency or Celerity (at this point, the wizard wins initiative, regardless any of your effort).
    Your contingency argument still fails, because the contingency spell is applied after the action triggering it. So you would take one melee attack, at least, before the contingent spell kicks in. Against a ranged spell like Destruction, you had just better hope your Fort save roll is high. You are misunderstanding the Celerity spell, and its trigger "immediate action." You can only take immediate actions when you are not flat-footed, and you are considered flat-footed until you take your first turn. So losing initiative means you can't use Celerity.

    High STR and CON fighter? Blasphemy! Granted that I would never play a straight Fighter 20, but whenever I did play melee classes, I would always build for a high touch AC, because there are just too many really strong Ranged Touch attacks, including Ray of Stupidity (and its metamagicked variants), Antimagic Ray, etc.

    Weapon Finesse isn't only for Rogues, you know. One of my best characters was a Halfling with Quick-Draw, Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Poison Use. He basically loaded up a few dozen poisoned daggers, and during combat would attack, drop the poisoned-expended weapon, Quick draw another poisoned weapon, etc. There's nothing quite like forcing your enemy to take 14d6 CON damage in one round with 7 hits (how many characters have CON over 49?).

    Here's really the stat block I would go with (with a Halfling, let's say):

    STR: 10 (4 pt)
    DEX: 19 (13 pt)
    CON: 14 (6 pt)
    INT: 10 (2 pt)
    WIS: 10 (2 pt)
    CHA: 14 (6 pt)

    This is a 33 point buy, which is a bit high, but you can imagine the DEX being 17 for a 28 point buy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Querzis View Post
    Yes he did, by buffing some fighters.
    Even beyond that. He dismissed 3 titanium elementals while the rest of the party could only take on two. If he hadn't, the walls would have been destroyed and azure city would have fallen a lot sooner.

    You're right, with clerical and magical support, a fighter becomes very durable and can keep on killing, which is their big selling point. If you consider either individually though, the wizard will remain extremely useful during a war like that, whereas the fighter without support will not be able to have nearly as much of an impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladesyz View Post
    V's contributions to that battle were arguably less than that of Belkar's.
    I don't think Belkar's contributions are even remotely close to V's. Even if we're generous and say Belkar killed 1000 hobgoblins, which is a very high estimate. This would just mean azure city is outnumbered 2.85 to 1 instead of 3 to 1, still terrible odds.

    That's sort of the point with this war. Spells, especially utility spells, beat melee combat simply because melee combat is provided by the thousands of soldiers already. Even though they are individually weak, together they adds up to a hell of a lot more than any fighter type PC could hope to do. Meanwhile, spells that support those thousands of soldiers or keep the odds in their favor are much more likely to impact the outcome of the battle than a single PC going around just killing stuff.

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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by Querzis View Post
    Great so you take a one-off comment in my post about being prepared in advance that I did intend as being only a bonus and you apparently take it as being my only point. Also, when you replied to TheWerdna, you once again confused being the best duelist with being the best class until you enter a war and discover that by the time you become nothing more then a level 13 commoner in robes, the fighter (or any other class then wizard actually) is still killing stuff. I believe I'll just ignore you now.
    Why so serious?
    I was merely pointing out that the old saw "wizards have to know what's coming or they're useless" has little basis even when sticking just to core. Some spells are just so versatile that they're always worth preparing - again, like Polymorph and Solid Fog. I never said that was your only point, it was just one that was coming up from multiple posters and I happened to quote the version from your post. If you thought I was picking on you personally, I assure you that wasn't my intention.

    As for a war, no wizard worth his salt will ever end up being a "level 13 commoner in robes." Even just sticking to core he can still use spell trigger and completion items all day long (a fact that Vaarsuvius should have made use of - really, there were no wands anywhere in all of Azure City?), and once we migrate from core and into the land of reserve feats, he's extremely hard-pressed to run out of steam.

    Finally, from a realism standpoint, wearing full plate and swinging a sword around for hours on end can get pretty tiring too, and is probably just as if not more tiring than casting spells. Sure the fighter might still be killing stuff, but he's just as likely to get killed himself by going toe-to-toe with the enemy while tired. RAW D&D makes fighters out to be energizer bunnies, but stories based on it are a different matter.
    Last edited by Optimystik; 2009-10-27 at 09:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    Your contingency argument still fails, because the contingency spell is applied after the action triggering it.
    At the risk of repeating myself, you should really create a thread on the Roleplaying games section, with your build, then await for the piranhas to come...
    I assure you bloodshed and shredding.

    EDIT: nevermind, here it is.
    If we want to continue the discussion there, you're all welcome.

    PS: how was supposed to do damage your fighter halflin without strenght bonuses? poison? really? Poisons don't work against a lot of things, are not cheap and are far from a good tactic: the ST are usually low.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2009-10-27 at 08:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slayn82 View Post
    Well, i would not call turning the eye of fear and flame as an inconsequential action. Belkar was in the middle of the enemy, without support, and got the upper hand over a considerable enemy asset, at the same time sparing a large amount of azurite soldiers and slaugthering the enemy. Alone, this double deal probably puts his contributions to the battle very close to V. And he saved the order from the incoming arrows.
    This is getting into the area where humor makes rules discussions foggy, but let's say that I have some doubts over how formidable an asset the EoFaF constituted. Given that it's immediate reaction to an enemy was to cower and make weak threats instead of, you know, attacking. I could probably have stopped that thing.
    And as I stated, given Belkar's location at the base of the walls it's clear that the tactical benefit he should have provided was to prevent hobgoblins from scaling the wall. Which we see clearly from the people fighting all over the walls, he was not doing.
    Given the size of the hobgoblins reserves, it seems unlikely that the forces spared to oppose him hindered their attack significantly. There's little evidence that he had much effect on the conflicts between the soldiery.

    You can say he saved the order, though frankly I doubt a group of hobgoblins capable of being taken out with 1 fireball provided much threat to them. And in any case, that event occurred after the battle had been lost. That helped them escape, but it didn't affect the tides of battle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    At the risk of repeating myself, you should really create a thread on the Roleplaying games section, with your build, then await for the piranhas to come...
    I assure you bloodshed and shredding.

    EDIT: nevermind, here it is.
    If we want to continue the discussion there, you're all welcome.

    PS: how was supposed to do damage your fighter halflin without strenght bonuses? poison? really? Poisons don't work against a lot of things, are not cheap and are far from a good tactic: the ST are usually low.
    Yeah, poisons did most of the damage for that build, plus sneak attack dice. Poisons are expensive, true, but it's not so bad when you harvest it yourself after killing some poisonous monsters.

    Hey, I never said that character was good against everything (like Golems). It was just really, really good against certain targets (basically everything susceptible to poison and sneak attack).

    EDIT: Regarding the saving throw... monsters roll natural 1's too... force them to make enough rolls and you've got it to stick. Actually using the WIS poisons from BoVD was pretty fun too, and worked better against monsters. CON poison is good for urban setting and killing NPCs.
    Last edited by ghostaxe; 2009-10-27 at 10:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    Yeah, poisons did most of the damage for that build, plus sneak attack dice. Poisons are expensive, true, but it's not so bad when you harvest it yourself after killing some poisonous monsters.
    Sneak attacks are another matter... they usually don't enter in a straight fighter build (the one we' were discussing).
    And harvesting the monsters... you must find and fight them, and also in this case, a fighter isn't the best character to handle poison...
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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    should be doing at least 30-40 points of damage on a single hit

    To Xykon Roy should be doing at best 2d6= 7 +10 (1.5 assuming a 24 str) +5 (magic), +2 (undead bane) +7 (2d6 undead bane extra damage) +2 (specialization)

    This is assuming the energy doesn't do something weird like make all of the damage cut through his reduction.

    33 points of damage per hit, minus 15 points per hit.. effectively cutting Roy's damage in half to roughly 15.

    Durkon would be doing at least 1d6 (3.5)+ 3 +1= 7.5 damage, quite possibly more.

    power attack may or may not be useful for roy, i'd need to have a rough idea of xykons ac to know. Since he's apparently been cranking out touch ac magic items, i'm going to guesse not.
    Last edited by derfenrirwolv; 2009-10-27 at 11:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smiling Knight View Post
    I believe he was referring to the "gambler's fallacy"- the idea that if you flip a coin 9 times and it comes up heads each time, many people will say that it is more likely to turn up tails the next time, despite the fact that the odds are still 50/50.
    Nah it's more likely to be HEADS, as obviously that coin is weighted.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    This entire debate started with somebody claiming that the fighter is a bad class, and that a level 5 mage can beat a level 20 fighter.

    Now that we have conclusively disproved the latter (unless you define "beating" as "successfully running away"), let's examing the first claim.

    In any claim that a level 20 Mage can beat a level 20 Fighter, the pro-mage camp always assumes two things:

    1- The fighter has no magic items
    2- The mage has time to buff himself up with all his spells.

    They then somehow manage to convince themselves that this is fair.

    If you pit a level 20 fighter against a level 20 mage, both naked and without any prior preparation, the fighter would win if he wins initiative and/or makes his saving throw.

    However, that's not really the point. The point is the fallacy that somehow, caster classes are *better* than non-caster classes. Supporters of that fallacy ALWAYS takes out the fighter vs mage argument.

    Here's a thought, why not make it a Monk vs Mage? Put a Monk and a Mage together, of equal level, both without magic items, starting on equal footing. Now see who would win. For even more fun, make it a Drow Monk.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Alright guys, I have something so that Clerics aren't that useful against Xykon.

    SoD spoilers

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    Xykon has a ring that guards him from positive energy, so that Right-Eye couldn't have sneak attacked him in the battle above Redmountain Hills
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by TehSheen View Post
    Alright guys, I have something so that Clerics aren't that useful against Xykon.

    SoD spoilers

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    Xykon has a ring that guards him from positive energy, so that Right-Eye couldn't have sneak attacked him in the battle above Redmountain Hills
    Durkon is still a bit better in straight combat than the rest of the party, he still is the only one who bypasses Xykon's Damage reduction

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by TehSheen View Post
    Alright guys, I have something so that Clerics aren't that useful against Xykon.

    SoD spoilers

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    Xykon has a ring that guards him from positive energy, so that Right-Eye couldn't have sneak attacked him in the battle above Redmountain Hills
    Just out of curiosity, when Xykon was 'sploded at the Redmountain gate, I don't think Redcloak took the time to gather up his masters magical items. Indeed, V got his wing of wizardry, and Roy grabbed the (non-magical) crown. Would he still have that item? Would he have kept that item in lieu of other rings?
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Xykon's Weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by DuskEclipse View Post
    Durkon is still a bit better in straight combat than the rest of the party, he still is the only one who bypasses Xykon's Damage reduction
    He's also proof that Clerics can replace fighters without trying, freeing a spot in a three person party for a sorcerer or another wizard. I was disappointed that the paladins did not equip themselves with halberds before going to die. I found that shortsighted and inflexible.
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