Feats for a bard?

[Wereling]

We're starting a new campaign soon, set in the same world as a previous game. The new characters are going to be the decendants of the previous group, a century later. My previous character was a human Rouge who was a champion of Fharlanghn, so I'm thinking I'd like to make my new character a bard. I've never played a Bard long-term (I did once in X-crawl, but that was different) and I'd like to give it a shot.

Human and Half-elf are in play, but there are some restrictions. I'm intentionally NOT optimizing the character as much as I might otherwise to avoid friction with other players and the DM. Correspondingly, Diplomancy is out. I've already stated I'm not going to take more than 5 ranks in Dilpomacy to allay the DM's fears in this regard.

I'm leaning towards either a Divine Bard or (if the DM will allow it) a bard with the Arcane Disciple feat (with the Travel domain) to represent my family's continued favor with the Fharlanghn. I'm likely going to take Silent Spell, since I intend to pretty much stay with bard the whole way (though this isn't set in stone), and I plan to use Perform (Oratory) or Perform (Singing) as my Bardic Music skill. Beyond that I'm really at wits end when it comes to spell selection. I haven't done stats yet, but they're likely going to be close to what I would get with a 32-point buy. I'd like some suggestions for feats, and I'm open to suggestions for spells and prestige classes.

Those of you have played Bards, what worked for you? Those of you that were in parties with Bards, what did you enjoy about having one in your party? Correspondingly, what didn't work? Any input you folks could provide would be appreciated.

We're starting at level 1, and may end up going all the way to level 20 (this DM runs LONG games).

[Stegyre]

Save yourself a feat: Bard spells cannot use Silent Spell.

Maybe you meant to say, "I'm likely not going to take Silent Spell . . . ." Either that, or you're very serious about not optimizing.

[AstralFire]

Words of Creation. Amazingly powerful for a support bard and extremely flavorful; best of both worlds, and I don't mean some two-bit Disney Channel kid.

[Wereling]

Save yourself a feat: Bard spells cannot use Silent Spell.

Maybe you meant to say, "I'm likely not going to take Silent Spell . . . ." Either that, or you're very serious about not optimizing.

/facepalm

I have no idea how I missed that. Oh well. Thanks for the heads up.

[Golden-Esque]

There's a feat in Complete Adventurer called Subsonics. It lets you preform the verbal components of all Bardic spells and Bardic Music extremely softly. If you're going for a sneaky bard, it's a feat to look into, but you can't qualify until 6th level :(.

"Jack of All Trades" from the same book is pretty good, especially if you're playing a Smart Bard. Versatile Performer is a great way to be multi-talented without spending zillions of skill points. Taking Roguish-feats is usually a decent idea too, as are any of the many Bardic Music feats from Complete Adventurer.

If you're not into Bardic Knowledge, the Player's Handbook 2 has an alternate Bard feature called Bardic Knack, which lets you substitute a roll for a skill check, or something similar.

[Wereling]

Words of Creation. Amazingly powerful for a support bard and extremely flavorful; best of both worlds, and I don't mean some two-bit Disney Channel kid.

Interesting, but this DM is already skittish about my power level, and bringing up the Book of Exalted Ch...deeds is probably going to make my life harder, not easier.

They DO look very cool though. I'll keep it in mind for another build. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Wereling]

There's a feat in Complete Adventurer called Subsonics. It lets you preform the verbal components of all Bardic spells and Bardic Music extremely softly. If you're going for a sneaky bard, it's a feat to look into, but you can't qualify until 6th level :(.

"Jack of All Trades" from the same book is pretty good, especially if you're playing a Smart Bard. Versatile Performer is a great way to be multi-talented without spending zillions of skill points. Taking Roguish-feats is usually a decent idea too, as are any of the many Bardic Music feats from Complete Adventurer.

If you're not into Bardic Knowledge, the Player's Handbook 2 has an alternate Bard feature called Bardic Knack, which lets you substitute a roll for a skill check, or something similar.

I knew about Bardic Knack, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to give up Bardic Knowledge for it. I'm torn between the two. Given the chance though, I'd probably take Bardic Knack.

How does that work with Jack of All Trades, btw? It SEEMS like it would effectively allow you to use ANY skill you don't have ranks in with a number of ranks equal to 1/2 your bard level, even ones that would normally require you be trained (thanks to JoAT). RAW though says it doesn't work unless you have 1 actual rank in the skill, where JoAT treats you as having .5 ranks.

Subsonics and Versatile Performer are good suggestions though. I'm looking through Bardic Music feats now. Any favorites?

[sadi]

Depends on what type of bard you're looking at, if you're interested in more of a caster take a look at Lyric Thaumaturge out of complete mage, I can't see your dm worrying about 1 extra spell slot per level plus 1 extra spell known (from wizard list) per level either. Lyric spell is another nice feat for getting extra spells per day, making extra bardic music more tempting.

[AstralFire]

Ah, well, that's understandable. The Words of Creation are certainly a big boost to an already decent ability. What aspect of the bard would you like to focus on most - the Bard as Gish, or the Bard as support?

[riddles]

standard inspire courage boosts:
song of the heart (feat)
inspirational boost (spell)
vest of legends (gear)
badge of valor (gear)

3/day you can have an IC bonus of X+3 (where X is the standard IC for your bard level + 4 for wearing vest of legends). getting a second badge of valor will allow you to do this for a heavy day's fighting.

after that, you have a couple of ways to go. finding a way to get turn undead will let you take divine might (cloistered cleric dip, paladin dip, prestige paladin, soldier of light prc) and you can become a pretty hefty damage dealer.

if you get dragonfire inspiration, go the two weapon fighting route and add large amounts of d6s to every attack. this is also possible for ranged combat, though that might be a bit feat intensive.

[EDIT] other good feats include melodic casting (cast while singing and make perform checks instead of concentration) and lingering song. though lingering song is replacement with a crystal echoblade weapon.

[Wereling]

Ah, well, that's understandable. The Words of Creation are certainly a big boost to an already decent ability. What aspect of the bard would you like to focus on most - the Bard as Gish, or the Bard as support?

Probably "Bard as support" Being able to play Gish a bit might be nice, but I think I'd fit in better with the part in a support role, especially since our group tends to be melee-heavy.

I'm almost certainly going to play the group's social skillmonkey (since I'm better at it than anyone else in the group), but I do need to be useful in combat.

[ZeroNumerous]

What about picking up Dragonfire Inspiration and building toward Lyric Thaumaturge then? Combine that with Sublime Chord, a Heightened(to highest level you can cast) Energy Sub(Sonic) Burning Blade spell and you'll give the fighter a fairly nice damage boost if you sing.

[AstralFire]

Well, in addition to riddles' good post, I'd grab Dragonfire Inspiration.

If inspire courage is going to be your go-to spell, I'd say you should grab a weapon and the arcane strike feat and focus on learning out-of-battle utility spells, like Glibness, Animal Messenger, Erase, Magic Mouth etc - stuff that could come in handy and is fun. This lets you sort of get the adventure utility of a wizard, rather than stocking up on stuff like Grease when the first round of a combat for you is almost always going to be singing.

With dragonfire inspiration and inspire courage optimization, you won't be hurting for damage.

[crazedloon]

well a must for a gish type bard is snowflake wardance (frostburn) to allow you to dump str (particularly if you also grab weapon finesse)
I would also suggest force of personality as it will allow you to dump wis as well (some things will be nice to still have a positive wis mod for but most of the really bad stuff is mind effecting)
dragon-fire inspiration as well as twf tree combined with the aforementioned wardance can turn you into a killing machine

Also in all technicality bardic knack and jack of all trades do not stack however talk with your dm as it is a common house rule to allow them to work

[deuxhero]

There's a feat in Complete Adventurer called Subsonics. It lets you preform the verbal components of all Bardic spells and Bardic Music extremely softly. If you're going for a sneaky bard, it's a feat to look into, but you can't qualify until 6th level :(.

"Jack of All Trades" from the same book is pretty good, especially if you're playing a Smart Bard. Versatile Performer is a great way to be multi-talented without spending zillions of skill points. Taking Roguish-feats is usually a decent idea too, as are any of the many Bardic Music feats from Complete Adventurer.

If you're not into Bardic Knowledge, the Player's Handbook 2 has an alternate Bard feature called Bardic Knack, which lets you substitute a roll for a skill check, or something similar.

Note that Knack and Jack don't stack/work with each other (sorry, the ryming was not on purpose). No "half your class level on every check you don't have actual skills in".

[hustlertwo]

I'm going to try a bard in a big battle sometime soon, and someone linked me to this for ideas. Might be of benefit to you as well. Definitely check out the Melodic Casting feat, and the level 1 spell to boost your Inspire Courage.

[Aldizog]

You're getting a fair bit of optimizing advice, and if you take this, the DM isn't going to be too happy. If he's already leery of your power level, I'd recommend against Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, and Darkstalker (from LoM, an otherwise excellent feat).

Bards are much more powerful than generally acknowledged. It's just that they do most of their damage indirectly. Even a simple +2/+2 Inspire Courage (at level 2 with Inspirational Boost) is as good as giving everybody in the party Rage. Or Mass Bull's Strength. Or WF+WS+GWF. Or a perpetual Aid Another for everybody plus giving them Favored Enemy (bad guys). A +2 to Will saves vs. fear almost closes the gap between a Ftr6 and a Wiz6. In a low-optimization game, +2/+2 is HUGE. I speak from experience. Now, the problem with buffs is that a) players forget them, and b) when you stack several you just annihilate enemies of appropriate CR. So stick to just one or two effects, and don't take a lot of buffing spells. Even just IC + Haste can easily double your party's damage output, especially against high-AC foes.

As to feats you could take that wouldn't scare the DM, Obscure Lore is a good choice. +4 to Bardic Knowledge checks, and that ability can be extremely useful (while remaining in the DM's control). Melodic Casting is nice, as are Force of Personality and Subsonics. Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and a whip make for a good second-line combat option, as do Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. The DM probably wouldn't object to core feats, right? Lingering Song is also good once you get to higher levels and want to have multiple bard songs going at once (your fighters will love you for Inspire Greatness, and one of the masterworks instruments in CAdv makes it affect more people).

SC has some spells that aren't particularly powerful but are quite flavorful, like Bonefiddle and Nightmare Lullaby. Ironthunder Horn and Whirling Blade have the cinematic visuals going on. Hymn of Praise, Harmonic Chorus, or Joyful Noise can all help support your party's casters. And then there are the more utility spells. Whatever your group considers fun, make that your #1 priority in spell choice. For some groups, it is evocative action scenes; for others, it is precision and effectiveness; for others, it is clever problem-solving.

[AstralFire]

I don't think Dragonfire Inspiration or Snowflake Wardance are on the same level as Words of Creation. Not that WoC is particularly amazing until you get around a +3, since the damage isn't negligible at lower levels. I do agree with picking fun out-of-combat utility spells, however, and suggested that for a reason.

[El Dorado]

I'm currently running a 10th level bard. Feat-wise, I've had good experience with Extra Music, Song of Heart, Lyric Spell, and Lingering Song. Our group has a lot of melee but I couldn't over-optimize either. Still, the +5 to hit, +4 to damage (Inspirational Boost and Haste combo) isn't too shabby. I also picked up a +1 harmonizing crystal echoblade (my DM thought it was greatly underpriced but he allowed it).

When I hit 12th, I'm planning on Captivating Melody to help keep my enchantment and illusion spells on par.

Melodic Casting is good if you're starved for skill points but I skipped it because I'm not doing a lot of casting.

[Golden-Esque]

Bards are much more powerful than generally acknowledged.

This, definitely. When I was playing my Bard, we were out in the Desert, walking along when a Purple Worm showed up. One awesome battle later, the PCs were all talking about how much damage they did. And then it came up, of course, how the Bard (me) did nothing but sing the whole time.

Now, our party was Bard, Psion, Barbarian, Ranger, Monk, and Cleric. Naturally, I didn't do much for the Cleric or the Psion, but I pointed out that every time they hit, I technically did 1 Damage, because of my Song (I was multiclass Bard 3/ Rogue 2 :P). So we go back and add all the times the Barbarian and Ranger hit, and the damage score came to something like this:

Psion: 36
Barbarian : 45
Ranger: 37
Monk: 0 (He spent most of the time kitting the worm around)
Cleric: 0 (Go go Gadget Divine Reach!)
Bard: 22

Moral of the story? Bards are fun :).

[Aldizog]

I pointed out that every time they hit, I technically did 1 Damage, because of my Song (I was multiclass Bard 3/ Rogue 2 :P).

And if you include all the times when they hit exactly because of your song, then *all* the damage from those hits would be attributable to you.
As IC improves, the to-hit bonus matters more.

[Wereling]

This, definitely. When I was playing my Bard, we were out in the Desert, walking along when a Purple Worm showed up. One awesome battle later, the PCs were all talking about how much damage they did. And then it came up, of course, how the Bard (me) did nothing but sing the whole time.

That, at least, I'm not worried about. My group (despite being fairly melee heavy) DOES in fact understand the use of a good buff. Previous casters of mine (notably a halfling wizard/cleric/Mystic Theurge/Archmage/Fatespinner/OMGWTFBBQ I took from 12-epic) have been based around them. I think I will indulge in a few of the Inspire Courage tricks, and I think they'll thank me for it.

Lyric Thaumaturge looks interesting. I might end up giving it a try (the prerequisites are mostly things I'd have taken anyway). I like the fact I get extra spellcasting, though it looks like it might end up hurting my Inspire Courage. Melodic Spellcasting is likely a must, and I'll probably be taking it right off regardless of which race I go into.

Dragonfire Inspiration sounds good, but also like something that would get me in hot water with the GM, so I think I'm (reluctantly) going to have to skip it.

[riddles]

i'm not sure you can use snowflake wardance and twf, though i'm afb so don't know the exact wording. [EDIT] dear lord yes you can. if you can find the feats for DFI, song of the heart, snowflake wardance and twf and also get yourself a crystal echoblade you are horrendous to deal with in a fight...especially with the addition of a miss chance...my next character i think...

dfi is great but only if you have a lot of high BAB guys that don't need the boost to hit. and even then, they're likely to turn regular IC into PA damage.

[Tyger]

Yeah, if you are trying to avoid making your DM cry, then definitely avoid the optimization... I am not sure why Bards got such a bad rap, but when you build even remotely well, the bard just wrecks encounters. My level 2 bard with Dragonfire Inspiration, casting Inspirational Boost and playing a masterwork mandolin (check PHBII for some masterwork instrument rules) added 3d6 fire damage to every single attack that our melee centric party dished out. In total, my music did more damage than any other two characters put together.

Now I know that will level out as they other characters get tougher, but its still insane!

Our first encounter was almost over before the NPCs even got to go in the initiative order. I went first, then our two warriors each took out a goblin in one hit, followed by our wizard with a friggin' longbow taking out a third... it was sad to watch the DM's encounter just ruined.

In short, the utility ideas that you are getting here are likely the best ideas. They contribute something the rest of the party likely can't, but still let them shine in their own areas.

[Talya]

Must have feats for bard (in no particular order):
Melodic Casting
Snowflake Wardance
Song of the Heart (Eberron feat, but nothing about it is setting specific other than the book it is in.)

Also see if you can get yourself a "Crystal Echoblade" out of Magic Item Compendium (they're cheaper than a +2 weapon.)

[Thorin]

I would recomend to use a dagger-whip if your DM is ok (is a 3.0 weapon and it has never been updated). Is and exotic one-handed weapon (if you have the whip prof you also have the dagger-whip prof, so bonus points for you). It has 15 ft reach, and does 1d6/19-20x2 (so, a shortsword tied to a whip :P)

Once, when I played a bard, I went the finesse (yes, dagger-whip is finesseable) / combat reflexes / stand still "combo". So, inspire courage, enlarge person, haste and I was a buffer/field controler. Not really optimized, but surely fun. And as you leave one hand free (unless you have a mithril light shield) you do not need to worry about ASF or "at least one hand free to cas" rule

[Wereling]

Snowflake Wardance is...interesting. I'm not certain I'll have the stats for it (I'm going more of the support route), but I'll definitely keep it in mind. The Dagger-whip is interesting, but I think I'll be using more conventional weaponry to start with. Rocking the house in Melee is probably OK. I suspect my DM's real fears are going to be spellcasting and bardic music abilities.

Song of the Heart I'll have to look into, as setting-specific stuff is generally available in our games regardless of the setting unless there's a REALLY good reason not to have it.

[Talya]

Snowflake Wardance is...interesting. I'm not certain I'll have the stats for it (I'm going more of the support route), but I'll definitely keep it in mind. The Dagger-whip is interesting, but I think I'll be using more conventional weaponry to start with. Rocking the house in Melee is probably OK. I suspect my DM's real fears are going to be spellcasting and bardic music abilities.

The only reason not to have snowflake wardance is if your charisma is low. Which it shouldn't be, you're a bard. I would personally go with a longsword if you do that route, though. Probably a crystal echoblade if you can get one.

Song of the Heart I'll have to look into, as setting-specific stuff is generally available in our games regardless of the setting unless there's a REALLY good reason not to have it.

It's +1 to bardic music effects such as inspire courage, which basically makes you very good at the support role.

The thing that becomes fun, after starting bardic music, maintaining it is a free action. Snowflake wardance also adds charisma to your to-hit rolls. The crystal echoblade adds half your bard level as sonic damage to those hits while bardsong is active. Then song of the heart means you get that extra +1 to hit and damage (on top of the normal song bonus) as well. Combined, it makes you very good at melee. You've still got the utility casting, but you become every bit as dangerous in melee as anyone else in your party.

[Wereling]

The only reason not to have snowflake wardance is if your charisma is low. Which it shouldn't be, you're a bard.

Oh I agree, but I need to be sure my DM is OK with it first.

I would personally go with a longsword if you do that route, though. Probably a crystal echoblade if you can get one.

Longsword? really? My strength isn't going to be fantastic, so I had planned on using a light weapon for Weapon Finesse. Probably either a scythe or a dagger. I'd love to get an echoblade, but it's not going to be possible right off (the game starts at lvl 1)

It's +1 to bardic music effects such as inspire courage, which basically makes you very good at the support role.

Yeah I looked that up. Definitely going to take it at some point. I'm trying to map out my feats now.

The thing that becomes fun, after starting bardic music, maintaining it is a free action. Snowflake wardance also adds charisma to your to-hit rolls. The crystal echoblade adds half your bard level as sonic damage to those hits while bardsong is active. Then song of the heart means you get that extra +1 to hit and damage (on top of the normal song bonus) as well. Combined, it makes you very good at melee. You've still got the utility casting, but you become every bit as dangerous in melee as anyone else in your party.

I do love the flexibility of the Bard (and you left out access to UMD for even more utility), but like I said turning (if you'll pardon the phrase) the character to the party is a bit tricky. I'm specifically NOT trying to be optimal, so that I don't cause rancor in a party that doesn't think about building a character in the same way I do. Chances are that at some point I will take Snowflake Wardance, but I might wait a few levels first to let the beatsticks start coming into their own. I'd love to get a crystal echoblade, but it's not really up to me. I need my DM to be OK with it before it's going to be put into the game.

Right now I'm looking at feats that maximize my ability to help others. I'm planning on Melodic Casting and maybe Lingering Song as first level feats (assuming I stay human) so that I can support my teammates better. Dragonfire Inspiration is almost certainly out, but I plan to make my Inspire Courage my primary focus early on. I'll worry about my own utility in combat later.

I'm planning out the first 10 levels of my build right now, with the intention of staying straight Bard. Lyric Thaumaturge is nice, but I think the rest of the stuff I want to get later on will be easier to get if my DM knows I'm not planning on a prestige class.

Thanks for the help everyone BTW. This has all been very valuable.

[taltamir]

i think a bard is a classic skill monkey... like a rogue... casting lets them do a bunch of secondary things well, they double as the party face. Take a few feats and they can make for some solid archers when they are not casting spells. just chose the right spells. (like tashas hideous laughter)