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    Default Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Please don't bite me...

    This thread, in the OotS section, has derailed on a confrontation Fighter Vs wizard of various levels (see pages 3 and 4).

    In the end, a 20th lev. fighter have some chance against a Wizard 13th lev?
    Consider full WBL and all the tricks affordable for the two.
    You can even give the fighter UMD ala Giacomo's monk.... optimize him to face a wizard.
    Can the fighter wins? and augmenting the gape, what is the minimum level of the wizard to have a chance to win?

    Eventually, you can link me to oldest threads on similar challenges for different level characters.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2009-10-27 at 08:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Sure. A 20th-level fighter with high Charisma can recruit a 17th-level wizard as a cohort.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    A pure wizard 13? Possible, but difficult, for the fighter to win.

    By Wizard 15, I'd say there's simply not much hope.

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    In Core, the Fighter probably has a small chance if the Wizard knows he'll be fighting a Fighter who tries to take his life while preparing spells, or has few key scrolls available. Level 7 spells are a bitch.

    The real problem is that the Wizard can just über-Dispel Fighter's key items (most relevantly, ones that provide him with flight) and be untouchable as he tosses Enervations or whatever the hell at the Fighter with Contingency providing one Get Out Of the Jail For Free-card and stuff like Mirror Image and such making Fighter's attacks, even if he somehow does get to attack, pretty useless.

    Out-of-Core, Fighter gets a lot of neat tricks including making himself difficult to detect and actually being able to go lethal if he gets an attack off, but if we allow everything including Craft Contingent Spell and Celerity, it's all over. And the point at which the Fighter just won't win is when the Wizard gets level 9 spells.


    There have been threads on this before, but can't find 'em.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    In the end, a 20th lev. fighter have some chance against a Wizard 13th lev?
    Some chance? Sure. Much? Probably not. Depends on how many splatbooks you're using.

    You can even give the fighter UMD ala Giacomo's monk.... optimize him to face a wizard.
    That strategy hasn't worked very well for monks so far, although of course fighters would be slightly better at it (due to less MAD). It has some use at level 20, certainly, but wands are only available for spells up to level 3, and scroll usage DCs can get obnoxiously high for a class that doesn't have UMD on his class list. Overall, "taking ranks in UMD" is a far cry from "optimizing to face a wizard".

    what is the minimum level of the wizard to have a chance to win?
    I suppose fifth. Wizard casts hold person, then proceeds to coup-de-grace with a scythe.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    I'd argue that a well-built Fighter 20 can beat a Wizard 16. At Wizard 17, with 9th level spells, things start getting crazy, but before that, the wealth dominates.

    Lvl 20 wealth: 760k
    Lvl 16 wealth: 260k

    UMD is a cross-class skill, so Fighter has 11 ranks. +5 from 14+6 CHA, +3 for Skill Focus, and +10 from an item, that's +29, enough to activate every scroll. The key to winning with the Fighter is to win Initiative. With a Halfling DEX-based fighter, 28 pt buy:

    STR: 10
    DEX: 18+5+5+6 = 34 (+12)
    CON: 14+6=20 (+5)
    INT: 10
    WIS: 8
    CHA: 14+6=20 (+5)

    Take Improved Initiative Feat, and a couple scrolls of Moment of Prescience, the Init mod is at:

    12 (DEX) + 4 (feat) + 17 (MoP) = +33

    A wizard is going to struggle to beat that, unless you use the highly cheesy (and usually banned) Dragon magazine Hummingbird familiar with an extra ability from somewhere to double the familiar's bonus.

    The key point is that anything the Wizard can do, the Fighter can also do from Scrolls, plus he can prepare a whole bunch of Cleric/Druid/Sorceror spells as well.

    As mentioned previously in the other thread, Celerity requires an immediate action, and you can't take immediate actions while flat-footed, which you are until you take your first action. So losing initiative means no Celerity.

    Also, note that Celerity is a 4th level spell, which means it can be duplicated with a Wand. The rules for activating a wand are the same time as it takes to cast the spell, so the Fighter presumably could also do Celerity.

    Finally, for Contingent spells, you need to carefully define what the contingency is. The Contingent spell acts in reaction to the trigger, which means the trigger completes first. If the Fighter lobs a Destruction spell from a scroll, the death/damage is applied before the contingent spell..

    A much better strategy is to Celerity for an extra action, Antimagic Field yourself, and then charge-grapple the mage. Grappled Mage in Antimagic Field = powerless.
    Last edited by ghostaxe; 2009-10-27 at 08:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    I
    UMD is a cross-class skill, so Fighter has 11 ranks. +5 from 14+6 CHA, +3 for Skill Focus, and +10 from an item, that's +29, enough to activate every scroll.
    If you're going to optimize UMD like that, it's much easier to start with a rogue
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    If you're going to optimize UMD like that, it's much easier to start with a rogue
    It's true, it's true, but the original topic was Fighter 20 vs Wizard 13. So picking Rogue seemed illegal.

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Yeah, a fighter twenty will have a cohort, who will have a cohort, who will kill the wizard. Yeah... I'm not seeing this ending well for our hapless wizard.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    You could just use the Cosmopolitan feat to give him UMD as a class skill with a small bonus. That'd work, no-ones banned setting specific have they?
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    A much better strategy is to Celerity for an extra action, Antimagic Field yourself, and then charge-grapple the mage. Grappled Mage in Antimagic Field = powerless
    This will require either natural flight, or a displel magic, since its a wellknown fact that wizards are lasy, and stops walking anywhere around lv 11-12.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    It's true, it's true, but the original topic was Fighter 20 vs Wizard 13. So picking Rogue seemed illegal.
    Yes, but on the other hand, if all you're doing is UMD'ing (rather than, oh say, using fighter class abilities) then all you're really proving is that a level-20 wizard can beat a level-13 wizard.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    This will require either natural flight, or a displel magic, since its a wellknown fact that wizards are lasy, and stops walking anywhere around lv 11-12.

    Earlier than that.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    A much better strategy is to Antimagic Field yourself, and Celerity for an extra standard action, and then grapple the mage. Grappled Mage in Antimagic Field = powerless.
    That's a horrible strategy. Mages fly (Overland Flight, Phantom Steed, etc.). Without magic, you don't. Also, you don't cast Celerity in AMF. AMF is **** unless you are an Initiate of Mystra. And hell, AMF is a common Contingency target. And if you could grapple the mage, you could kill him. Why the hell would you grapple him? Heck, you could just Trip Lockdown; even that's more efficient. I never got peoples' fetish with grapple; why would you bother?


    One mistake, I need to point out: Fighter needs 37 UMD to activate every scroll. The DC is derived off CL, not Spell Level. It's also worth noting that Wizard has MoP too, boiling the Initiative most likely down to a die roll. Finally, we must remember that every time the fight ends in a draw (that is, one side teleports out), Fighter has consumed a tremendous amount of resources while the Wizard has consumed none.

    This makes for a very doable Wizard plan of just engaging with contingent teleport to get out once a spell is cast and rince and repeat until the Fighter runs out of wealth. And Fighter needs to have the items he plans on using in hands. He cannot activate an item he isn't wielding; therefore, if he plans on keeping Celerity Wand available at all times, he'll have serious issues using a variety of other spells too.


    Cleric/Druid/Sorc spells are cute, but that doesn't help 'cause all the relevant ones are Wizard-spells too. But really, the question is, to what level are we taking this? If we bring in Craft Contingent Spell, Fighter autoloses to a level 13 Wizard simply because Fighter doesn't qualify for the feat, but Wizard does.

    This means Wizard can take ~13 turns in consecution to the Fighter's one Celerity and cram the Fighter into an AMFd hole with Acid Fog or similar constant effect slowly milking the Fighter's life away. Or just go Boom Boom Boom and Dispel Fighter's protections followed by Enervating the Fighter to high heavens or whatever.


    If we don't allow it, this is much more interesting. Of course, Leadership messes this up 'cause it proves is that level 18 Wizard beats a level 13 Wizard.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-10-27 at 09:10 AM.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    A much better strategy is to Celerity for an extra action, Antimagic Field yourself, and then charge-grapple the mage. Grappled Mage in Antimagic Field = powerless.
    Welcome ghostaxe.

    Don't consider AMF.
    From 9th lev and on, the wiz. is constantly flying, and you need magic to approach him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    If we bring in Craft Contingent Spell, Fighter autoloses to a level 13 Wizard simply because Fighter doesn't qualify for the feat, but Wizard does.
    If we don't allow it, this is much more interesting. Of course, Leadership messes this up 'cause it proves is that level 18 Wizard beats a level 13 Wizard.
    I would deny CCS, and also Leadership.

    That said, even the fact that you need a 20th fighter against a 13th wiz. to have a slight hope, means something, i think...
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2009-10-27 at 09:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    I'd argue that a well-built Fighter 20 can beat a Wizard 16. At Wizard 17, with 9th level spells, things start getting crazy, but before that, the wealth dominates.

    (Lots of stuff)
    This is pointless. You aren't really optimizing a fighter. What portion of that strategy is derived from the fighter class? Improved Initiative is on the fighter bonus feat list, so that's... just about it. This isn't Fighter 20 vs Wizard x, because for all intents and purposes you aren't making a fighter.

    Additionally, Wizard 16 still wins, in my opinion. It can probably beat the initiative mod, as well. You didn't put very much effort into increasing yours.

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    The fighter 20 could easily crush the wizard 13, but we should be clear about something: it's not so much the fighter who's winning as the fighter's gear. With more than half a million gp in elaborate gadgets, the fighter can afford a gadget to prevent teleportation, a gadget to avoid divination, a handful of gadgets to buff his Reflex and Will saves into the stratosphere, a few more gadgets to make himself undetectable (dust of disappearance much?), a gadget to allow unlimited UMD, gadget to fly, teleport, and scry, a gadget or three to make it difficult or impossible for the wizard to cast spells, and more.

    A character with NPC warrior levels could do much the same thing. The only advantage the fighter has over the warrior is that it's relatively trivial for him to boost his damage output to where he can one-shot the wizard, and he has easier access to the mageslayer line of feats, which he can use to further hamper the wizard's ability to cast. These things make the battle easier for the fighter because they mean that the wizard cannot ever make a single mistake, or he's dead, but the ability to neutralize the wizard's formidable defenses is coming from gear that anyone can buy, given enough wealth.

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Some chance? Sure. Much? Probably not. Depends on how many splatbooks you're using.


    That strategy hasn't worked very well for monks so far, although of course fighters would be slightly better at it (due to less MAD). It has some use at level 20, certainly, but wands are only available for spells up to level 3, and scroll usage DCs can get obnoxiously high for a class that doesn't have UMD on his class list. Overall, "taking ranks in UMD" is a far cry from "optimizing to face a wizard".
    I'm pretty sure that wands can go up to lv4 spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I suppose fifth. Wizard casts hold person, then proceeds to coup-de-grace with a scythe.
    Because everybody knows that fighters don't have a will save. Or fort save.

    What happens when the fighter wins iniative and splits the wizard's head in half since he still can't afford contingencies?

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    I'm pretty sure that wands can go up to lv4 spells.
    4th, then. That doesn't invalidate my point though.

    Because everybody knows that fighters don't have a will save. Or fort save.
    The OP asked for "minimum level of the wizard to have a chance to win". Not the minmum level where the wiz is sure to win. So your point is?
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    Welcome ghostaxe.

    Don't consider AMF.
    From 9th lev and on, the wiz. is constantly flying, and you need magic to approach him.



    I would deny CCS, and also Leadership.

    That said, even the fact that you need a 20th fighter against a 13th wiz. to have a slight hope, means something, i think...
    Hm... apparently no one here has heard of a flying mount, like a Great Eagle. Ride is a Fighter skill, you know.

    Also, I wasn't trying to prove Fighter 20 is a good build, I was trying to prove that lvl 20 wealth + UMD beats lvl 16 wizard.

    Also, Fighter is good for extra BAB, which is useful for grappling.

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    I'm pretty sure that wands can go up to lv4 spells.
    Except it takes a standerd action to activate a wand unless the spell in question takes longer than a standerd action to cast in which case the wand takes just as long. No immediate action spells for UMDers, it's one of the reasons they're never quite at the same level as the original caster.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The OP asked for "minimum level of the wizard to have a chance to win". Not the minmum level where the wiz is sure to win. So your point is?
    errr... can we meet on a medium level? as "a good chance to win"?
    Theoretical ones (as our hold person) can happen 1 in 1000, but are no warranty of success.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostaxe View Post
    Hm... apparently no one here has heard of a flying mount, like a Great Eagle. Ride is a Fighter skill, you know.
    Good luck surprising the wizard and making him losing the initiative in the open with your giant flying bird...
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2009-10-27 at 09:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    I'm really fond of the part where everyone talks about the wizard flying as though it would totally destroy the fighters chance of hitting him. There are bows. There are pendants (or something) of spell resistance that will force a CL check, and I imagine at 20th level a fighter can afford a pretty good one. If you'd like to call it cheap for a fighter to spend lots of his wealth on fighting a wizard, then the wizard wouldn't be permitted to know he was fighting the fighter, and thus would prepare more random spells, and less combat spells. Keep in mind, all of this is my personal opinion. I may be overlooking some glaring flaw in my 'logic'. I just thought I should put that out there.

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by mostlyharmful View Post
    Except it takes a standerd action to activate a wand unless the spell in question takes longer than a standerd action to cast in which case the wand takes just as long. No immediate action spells for UMDers, it's one of the reasons they're never quite at the same level as the original caster.
    Rules compendruim said the spells activation time. Or was that just scrolls...
    I know it said swift action scrolls are possible.

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    errr... can we meet on a medium level? as "a good chance to win"?
    Theoretical ones (as our hold person) can happen 1 in 1000, but are no warranty of success.
    Certainly. What odds do you want for a good chance? What odds do you want for a warranty?

    Note that my example is not as weird as it sounds... a level-20 fighter has a base will save of +6. Hold person easily has a save DC of 10 + 3 (spell level) + 4 (intelligence) + 1 (spell focus) = 18. While it's certainly possible for the fighter to boost his save by +11, it is not at all a given.

    Quote Originally Posted by drengnikrafe View Post
    If you'd like to call it cheap for a fighter to spend lots of his wealth on fighting a wizard,
    It's not "cheap" or anything, but any tactic that can also be used by a twentieth-level commoner doesn't actually say anything about the fighter class.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2009-10-27 at 09:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    That's a horrible strategy. Mages fly (Overland Flight, Phantom Steed, etc.). Without magic, you don't. Also, you don't cast Celerity in AMF. AMF is **** unless you are an Initiate of Mystra. And hell, AMF is a common Contingency target. And if you could grapple the mage, you could kill him. Why the hell would you grapple him? Heck, you could just Trip Lockdown; even that's more efficient. I never got peoples' fetish with grapple; why would you bother?


    One mistake, I need to point out: Fighter needs 37 UMD to activate every scroll. The DC is derived off CL, not Spell Level. It's also worth noting that Wizard has MoP too, boiling the Initiative most likely down to a die roll. Finally, we must remember that every time the fight ends in a draw (that is, one side teleports out), Fighter has consumed a tremendous amount of resources while the Wizard has consumed none.

    This makes for a very doable Wizard plan of just engaging with contingent teleport to get out once a spell is cast and rince and repeat until the Fighter runs out of wealth. And Fighter needs to have the items he plans on using in hands. He cannot activate an item he isn't wielding; therefore, if he plans on keeping Celerity Wand available at all times, he'll have serious issues using a variety of other spells too.


    Cleric/Druid/Sorc spells are cute, but that doesn't help 'cause all the relevant ones are Wizard-spells too. But really, the question is, to what level are we taking this? If we bring in Craft Contingent Spell, Fighter autoloses to a level 13 Wizard simply because Fighter doesn't qualify for the feat, but Wizard does.

    This means Wizard can take ~13 turns in consecution to the Fighter's one Celerity and cram the Fighter into an AMFd hole with Acid Fog or similar constant effect slowly milking the Fighter's life away. Or just go Boom Boom Boom and Dispel Fighter's protections followed by Enervating the Fighter to high heavens or whatever.


    If we don't allow it, this is much more interesting. Of course, Leadership messes this up 'cause it proves is that level 18 Wizard beats a level 13 Wizard.
    Oops, you are correct, scrolls are 20+CL, so I need 36 UMD skill to guarantee success. If we allow the Cosmopolitan feat, then we're there already. If not, take the magical aptitude feat (another +2 to UMD), 5 ranks of spellcraft for the +2 synergy, Luckstone for +1 luck, and we're at +34. I'm sure I can squeeze another +2 from somewhere, by using a Tome of +4 CHA if nothing else.

    I used grapple because I tried to make this build as "core" as possible, and a lot of the trip lockdown builds requires extra splats.

    You can use Celerity from the Wand easily by having the Quick Draw feat (duh!). A Wizard 16 would have MoP, true, but a Wizard 13 would not. And even if the wizard 16 has MoP, the fighter is still slightly favored, because of higher DEX.

    Craft Contingent Spell and Contingent spells are silly. You're triggering the Contingent teleport for when anyone in a 200 foot radius casts a spell? Hello, that'd be gone like, the minute you enter into a major city. Even granting that you could do so feasibly, there's a much easier path for the Fighter:

    Dimensional Anchor (standard action)
    Celerity (immediate action)
    Antimagic Field (standard action)
    Mount charges and grapples (mount's full action)

    The contingent spell resolves after the trigger, so the trigger is Dimensional Anchor on the wizard, which negates the teleport spell.

  27. - Top - End - #27

    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The OP asked for "minimum level of the wizard to have a chance to win". Not the minmum level where the wiz is sure to win. So your point is?
    That a lv 20 fighter, or any character actualy, wich doesn't have a freedom of movement/mindblanck item or any other kind of anti paralysis trick should seriously consider comiting sepukku.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Certainly. What odds do you want for a good chance? What odds do you want for a warranty?

    Note that my example is not as weird as it sounds... a level-20 fighter has a base will save of +6. Hold person easily has a save DC of 10 + 3 (spell level) + 4 (intelligence) + 1 (spell focus) = 18. While it's certainly possible for the fighter to boost his save by +11, it is not at all a given.
    You know, in this kind of challenges, also the fighter is a little shroedinger. He can have a +5 cloack of resistance but, if there's need, also a cape of the mountebank.
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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    Quote Originally Posted by mostlyharmful View Post
    Except it takes a standerd action to activate a wand unless the spell in question takes longer than a standerd action to cast in which case the wand takes just as long. No immediate action spells for UMDers, it's one of the reasons they're never quite at the same level as the original caster.
    Please read the link carefully. It says "usually 1 standard action." I had a long debate with a friend in a game, and he eventually found it in the Rules Compendium somewhere that's it's the same action.

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    Default Re: Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13

    @drengnikrafe: Archery does piddling damage and is blocked by Wind Wall. Plenty of spells are SR: No, so the Fighter can get a whole cartload of pendants and still die. Wizards get enough slots to prepare both "random" spells and combat spells, and most non-combat spells would be on wands and scrolls anyway. If the Wizard is in the air and the Fighter isn't, the Fighter lost. If both are in the air or on the ground, then it's slightly more of a toss-up.
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