Theoretical Worry/question about Thrallherd

[OldTrees]

Can an ECL 6 npc, with one level in the Thrallherd prc, have a 6th level believer?
Wealth limited to non epic items only (Thrallherds can farm believers for gps)

6 6th level
+1 1st level thrallherd
+13 37cha (18 +3 venerable +2 magicblooded +2spellscale +6 cloak +5tome +1 level)
20 total


21 necessary for infinite loop

Is there a way to squeeze another +1 cha without increasing the ECL?

[RS14]

A Dromite has +2 Cha, no racial HD and LA +1. By level 6, you can have bought off the LA (if playing with that rule), giving +2 Cha at essentially no relevant penalty.

I'm sure there's a better option, but this is the first thing I see.

Never mind; I didn't realize spellscale was a race.

[OldTrees]

Thank you for the attempt.

I was assuming no LA buy off.
If LA buy off was included then tacking on the Draconic Template (Draconic Star Elf +4cha +1LA) would result in the loop.
So is there another +2cha +0LA template or is there a +4cha +0LA race

Dragon magazine not allowed.

[RS14]

Note that you can increase one ability score by one point at 4th level, IIRC, not that it gains you much.

[drengnikrafe]

Get a wish? Or maybe that doesn't stack with other stuff...

Alternatively, if your DM will allow you to use homebrews, the D&Dwiki is full of things like that.

I don't really know. Sorry.

[RS14]

Get a wish? Or maybe that doesn't stack with other stuff...

Doesn't stack with the tome.

[OldTrees]

I forgot the +1 at 4th. (fixed in original post)

we are 1 point of cha away from critical mass.

[RS14]

Hm. Get level drained, lose level 4, regain it? I don't see anywhere that your ability score reverts to the previous value when you lose a level, and though I don't have my PHB in front of me, I suspect the section on ability score increases lacks any clause to handle this.

Of course, you may have trouble finding Venerable Magicblooded Spellscale Thrallherds who just happened to be level drained when they were still level 4 NPCs.

[OldTrees]

Negative levels erase all of the previous level when they become permanent.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...NegativeLevels

Current Build

Magic-Blooded Venerable Spellscale with 18 base cha
Psion(Telepath)1/4 free levels/Thrallherd1
3rd level feat: practiced manifester

Free resources:
4 levels
+0 LA templates
+0 LA races with +2 or more cha
2 feats (1st & 6th)

[RS14]

How does your DM feel about bloodlines? A major Fey or Devil bloodline and you could be a Psion1/Fey2/Free2/Thrallherd1.

I think you still get all the bonuses you mentioned before, as well as +1 Cha at 3rd level.

[OldTrees]

Good point, blood line levels do not count for ECL.


Theoretical Cult Critical Mass Final Build
Venerable Magic-Blooded Spellscale ECL 6
Psion(Telepath)1/Fey Bloodline1(Major or Intermediate)/Anything4/Thrallherd1
Gear: Cloak of Cha +6, Tome of Cha +5

Cha 18[base]+1levels+1bloodline+2magicblooded+2spellscale+3age +6cloak+5tome
38 [+14]

Thrallherd
x6xxxx6th level
+1xxxx1st level thrallherd
+14xxxcha
21

1 ECL6 believer


A single 6th level thrallherd controls infinite 1-5 level believers and infinite copies of themselves

[RS14]

Good point, blood line levels do not count for ECL.

No, they count as any other level. I probably misunderstood; I thought you were saying that levels 2-4 could be any class.

[Heliomance]

Dragon magazine not allowed.

Uh, pretty sure magic-blooded is Dragon.

[sonofzeal]

Age to venerable, get Reincarnated, age to venerable again?

[Milskidasith]

Just buy an Admiral's Bicorn and enjoy your shiny +5 to leadership (and +2 morale to all skills, saves, and attacks for you and your allies, with +5 to profession(sailor) and all cha based skills for you.)

51k, Stormwrack. And yes, even if Thrallherd isn't technically leadership it still counts because it's a charisma based check, and the Bicorn gives you +5 to all of them.

[jindra34]

Issue with your loop, A thrall has to be at least one level lower than you. So your pushing it so hard is not likely going to do much benefit.

[AstralFire]

Issue with your loop, A thrall has to be at least one level lower than you. So your pushing it so hard is not likely going to do much benefit.

Cohorts have to be at least 2 levels below you.

But when I went to post the same as you last night, I realized that there is no such explicit restriction on followers, which is what he's chasing.

[zagan]

Unless I'm missing something, spellscale is not exactly a race, it's more an inherithed template, a creature born from two sorcerer but you keep the racial bonus from the base race.
You could be a Venerable Magic-Blooded Spellscale star elf ? that would be a +4 racial bonus to Cha.

[Godskook]

Unless I'm missing something, spellscale is not exactly a race, it's more an inherithed template, a creature born from two sorcerer but you keep the racial bonus from the base race.

Nope, it is a race, not a template. That description is in there, but as an origin of the race. If you read on a few more paragraphs, it mentions the fact that they're a 'distinct race', and gives stats for everything with no mention of a 'base creature'.

[zagan]

Nope, it is a race, not a template. That description is in there, but as an origin of the race. If you read on a few more paragraphs, it mentions the fact that they're a 'distinct race', and gives stats for everything with no mention of a 'base creature'.

Ah you're right I was mixing thing up with the dragonborn from the same book. Sorry.

[truemane]

Cohorts have to be at least 2 levels below you.

But Thralls, which are the Thrallherd version of Cohorts, can be up to one level lower than you.

I've always ruled that followers/believers have to be NPC levels. In fact, I thought that WAS the rule. But it turns out to have been explicitly stated in 3.0 and not explicitly stated in 3.5 (although the Epic Level rules, which hint very strongly that this is the case, are still part of the SRD).

So, assuming that Believers/Followers can have class levels, your only issue is going to be wealth by level. Let's crack open the Excel and see what's what.

Okay, so using the NPC wealth by level guidelines, and assuming it takes 24 hours for each new batch of believers to arrive (SRD says 'within 24 hours'):

At 6th level you have 13000 gp. You take your 1st Level of Thrallherd. Your score is 14

At dawn of the first day you attract 17 people (15 x 1st, 1 x 2nd, 1 x 5th), worth a total of 19,800 gp. You greet them merrily. And then you slaughter them all. Dawn comes, new people, repeat.

In two days later you have enough to purcahse that Cloak of Charisma +6. I ran the numbers with buying each Cloak as you can afford them, but it's faster and more efficient to just save up and buy the big one.

Ayway, you now have a score of 17. You've killed 34 people and you have 16,600 gp to spare. Dawn comes. It starts again.

Three days of this and you have earned enough to purchase your Tome +5, have killed another 123 people, and 21,900 gp to spare.

You read the tome and...

Now, on the dawn of the sixth day you attract another set of followers. One of them happens to be a Venerable Magic-Bloded, Spellscale, Fey-Bloodlined Thrallherd with 19 Charisma. And he, presumably, comes equipped with followers appropriate for a score of 14.

Now we have to kit him up to reach our next iteration. This time, however, you can slaughter and harvest his followers too, so it takes less time (and kills more people).

So now, between the two of you at scores of 21 and 14, you can earn 108,500 gp per day, killing 90 people to get it. So you can get that +6 cloak after one day, and then his Tome the next day.

So, on the dawn of the 8th day, you attract your full compliment of 73 people and your Venerable, Magic-blooded, Spellscaled, Fey-Bloodlined, 6th Level Thrallherd with 19 charisma attracts his own Venerable, Magic-Blooded, Spellscaled, Fey-Bloodlined, 6th Level Thrallherd with 19 charisma. This time, however, you have that +6 cloak waiting for him with the leftovers from your previous harvesting, so he can skip that initial step.

And the cycle begins anew.

After that you can earn enough in one day of harvesting to equip a new Venerable, Magic-Blooded, Spellscaled, Fey-Bloodlined, 6th Level Thrallherd with 19 charisma up to re-iteration levels.

And all you have to do is kill 548 people (plus another 150 or so each day to maintain the cycle), and have an infifinte supply of venerable, magic-blooded, spellscaled, fey bloodlined, 6th Level Thrallherd with 18 charisma to do it.

Simple!

[sonofzeal]

You can also get possessed by a Quori (ECS). If it likes you, that's a near-free +4 profane bonus to Charisma!

[CheshireCatAW]

The only catch being that it takes a while to read those tomes. Doesn't it take about a month to get the bonus? Well, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to get yourself one of those nifty Private-Property-Demiplanes with an accelerated time factor so that you can get the benefit day-by-day instead of waiting.

[truemane]

The only catch being that it takes a while to read those tomes. Doesn't it take about a month to get the bonus? Well, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to get yourself one of those nifty Private-Property-Demiplanes with an accelerated time factor so that you can get the benefit day-by-day instead of waiting.

I was going to include that in my model but it was more fun to cycle through believers on a 24 hour basis. And anyway, the real catch is the infinite supply of 6th level venerable,magic-blooded, spellscaled, fey-bloodlined Thrallherds with 19 Charisma.

And the fact that you can't 'harvest' gp from followers like it's a game of Warcraft. And that you have assume a ready supply of +5 Tomes and +6 Cloaks. And that, although the ability doesn't list any penalty for killing followers, after you've slaughtered 548 people for their money, you're running out of people anywhere but in a large urban area.

But it's a fun mental excercise all the same.

[Myrmex]

Cohorts have to be at least 2 levels below you.

Thrallherds don't get cohorts, thus aren't constrained by this particular leadership rule.

[OldTrees]

Good point, blood line levels do count for ECL.


Theoretical Cult Critical Mass Final Build
Venerable Spellscale ECL 6
Psion(Telepath)1/Anything4/Thrallherd1
Gear: Cloak of Cha +6, Tome of Cha +5

Cha 18[base]+1levels+2spellscale+3age +6cloak+5tome
35 [+12]

Thrallherd
x6xxxx6th level
+1xxxx1st level thrallherd
+12xxxcha
+5xxxxAdmiral's Bicorn

24

1 ECL6 believer (these are akin to dominated followers and thus have no level cap)


A single 6th level thrallherd controls infinite 1-5 level believers and infinite copies of themselves

Where is the Admiral's Bicorn from? (Heroes of Battle?)

Now is it possible to have a higher level thrallherd that has an ability to generate and age Spellscale Thrallherds?

[Mewtarthio]

The problem is... what happens if one of your ECL 6 believers takes you as a believer?

[AstralFire]

Would the people correcting me about Cohorts note that I went on in the same post to explicitly state that the cohort level restriction was irrelevant?

[OldTrees]

@Mewtarthio You command them not to.
@AstralFire I can't speak for everyone but I was not responding to you. I was making it clear for others who might not know about Thrallherds.

So, any thoughts on how an non epic thrallherd could create a supply of 6th level believers to create the infinite loop?