The Monk

[Temotei]

Could someone name all of the problems with the monk I miss?
*d8
*3/4 BAB
*Quivering Palm has a terrible save DC with most monsters being able to save easily
*Slow Fall is too situational
*Flurry of Blows requires a full-round action
*Speed bonus doesn't work well with Flurry of Blows
*MAD
*Limited magical ability in terms of weapons (Magic Fang, Greater)
*AC bonus isn't enough to help keep the monk on the front line, especially with d8 HD

That's all I can think of right now.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

*The ability to start thread wars

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Could someone name all of the problems with the monk I miss?
*d8
*3/4 BAB
*Quivering Palm has a terrible save DC with most monsters being able to save easily
*Slow Fall is too situational
*Flurry of Blows requires a full-round action
*Speed bonus doesn't work well with Flurry of Blows
*MAD
*Limited magical ability in terms of weapons (Magic Fang, Greater)
*AC bonus isn't enough to help keep the monk on the front line, especially with d8 HD

That's all I can think of right now.

All? That's a lot, and the combination of them is the problem, with MAD being the worst for making the others worse.
They have poor AC(no armor, MAD), poor AB(3/4ths BAB, no magic weapons, MAD), poor damage(unarmed scales poorly, MAD, no magic weapons, can't PA), no ability to use special attacks(3/4ths BAB, MAD, no proficiency with most 2-handers), and no spellcasting. The monk has decent non-AC non-HP defenses, I'll admit, they just can't do anything.

[sonofzeal]

* Monk weapons almost invariably suck (the Sai gets a +4 to disarm, but a -4 for being light; shurikens are pretty pointless except for 1d2 Crusaders; none of them are designed to be used as the sort of two-handed weapon that would most benefit a Monk).

* Defensive-based class features (saves, SR, AC) don't help you win fights, they just prolong the inevitable

[Eldariel]

Could someone name all of the problems with the monk I miss?
*d8
*3/4 BAB
*Quivering Palm has a terrible save DC with most monsters being able to save easily
*Slow Fall is too situational
*Flurry of Blows requires a full-round action
*Speed bonus doesn't work well with Flurry of Blows
*MAD
*Limited magical ability in terms of weapons (Magic Fang, Greater)
*AC bonus isn't enough to help keep the monk on the front line, especially with d8 HD

That's all I can think of right now.

All the latter Monk class features are too few times per day. Abundant Step (1/day), Quivering Palm (1/WEEK!), Wholeness of Body (too little; tie it to an ability score or something), etc. All of them should probably be e.g. tied to Wisdom so high Wis Monks get more of 'em.

Also, Perfect Self makes you an Outsider which means you no longer qualify for Enlarge Person. And is completely useless 'cause DR 10/Magic ain't happening. Make it DR 10/Chaotic or something.


Oh, and Monks stop gaining bonus feats after level 6. What's up with that?

[FMArthur]

They can do a lot for an early melee class. But nothing they do helps anything else they do. There's zero synergy.

[Curmudgeon]

Their abilities are all over the place, with no synergy between most of them. Plus they're mostly unique. Why does the Monk get Still Mind, thereby not qualifying for things that need Slippery Mind?

The weapons are just bizarre. While the intent was to duplicate some Asian weapons, the end result was just a mish-mash. Not having proficiency with at least simple weapons is very bad.

[lord_khaine]

*The ability to start thread wars

This one is properly the worst one, the others are not that bad again.

[PhoenixRivers]

Let's go down the line here:

*d8 -as does a cleric

*3/4 BAB -as does a cleric

*Quivering Palm has a terrible save DC with most monsters being able to save easily - Imprecise, but valid. All of a monk's special save or X are keyed of Fort saves. Strong fort monsters cause them problems. These are very common.

*Slow Fall is too situational -and practically obviated by fly

*Flurry of Blows requires a full-round action -Imprecise. It's that flurry precludes use of movement more than anything. If you're flurrying, it generally means you spent a full round close to an enemy. That generally means it wanted you close, which means it feels it has the advantage in close. There are exceptions, but, with withdraw actions, cover, etc, it's possible to evade easily, and hard to use effectively, unless you render yourself vulnerable to attack.

*Speed bonus doesn't work well with Flurry of Blows -I wouldn't call this a weakness, persay. It's possible to use the one to set up the other. Still, use of one means you're not using the other in any particuar round.

*MAD -Probably the big one. When AC, HP, accuracy, skills, and many other things are largely based on stats, and those stats are different, the result is either sacrificing multiple of the above, or sacrificing being on the leading edge of all of them.

*Limited magical ability in terms of weapons (Magic Fang, Greater) -Weapon enhancements are harder to obtain, and good ones are really good.

*AC bonus isn't enough to help keep the monk on the front line, especially with d8 HD -[i]I can see this. Rather, the investment requirement is disproportionately large, when compared to the gain. AC bonus from levels doesn't increase fast enough, from Wisdom, too hard to effectively pump.

As for thread wars? Eh.

In the monk's favor, eventual SR is a boon, against CR appropriate encounters.
Skillset is good, and skill points are solid enough to allow for a few skills, even if Int is dumped.

Can he be versatile? Yes. Can he be fun? Yes.

Will he be as effective in an individual role as a character more specialized for that role? Not likely.

[TheCountAlucard]

Imprecise, but valid. All of a monk's special save or X are keyed of Fort saves. Strong fort monsters cause them problems. These are very common.

Not to mention that so many monsters have a high number of hit dice, making it that much easier to make the save.

and practically obviated by fly

Even fly is unnecessary; feather fall beats slow fall.

As for thread wars? Eh.

Considering that so many monk threads get derailed and subsequently locked within days of their start, I say there's some pretty good evidence for it.

In the monk's favor, eventual SR is a boon, against CR appropriate encounters.

The SR would be decent, but they still have to take a standard action to lower their SR to receive buffs.

[elliott20]

did someone just cast "summon Giacomo"?

[Starbuck_II]

*Limited magical ability in terms of weapons (Magic Fang, Greater)

You forgot Monks can use Magic Weapon and Greater version as well.

[lord_khaine]

The SR would be decent, but they still have to take a standard action to lower their SR to receive buffs

The SR is decent, out of combat its not a issue, and in combat they are much more likely to be the target of hostile spells and spelllike abilites.

did someone just cast "summon Giacomo"?

Not yet, but im allready here.

[PhoenixRivers]

Not to mention that so many monsters have a high number of hit dice, making it that much easier to make the save.

High HD is less relevant. A Fey with high HD, or a wizard, is still gonna get eaten by this. The high HD, combined with High Con that is prevalent to big creatures, and the strong fort save... that's what makes fort monsters hard. It's a trifecta.

Even fly is unnecessary; feather fall beats slow fall.

Yes. But Feather Fall isn't required reading for most adventurers above level 10.

Fly is.

Considering that so many monk threads get derailed and subsequently locked within days of their start, I say there's some pretty good evidence for it.

Points to a lack of class in people, not a lack of strength in class. The civil threads tend to stay a while.

The SR would be decent, but they still have to take a standard action to lower their SR to receive buffs.

Everything has ups and downs. If they're casting their own buffs, they autopass. If not, then the party buffers would be wise to have spell penetration. Yes, SR has a weakness. But it is, on the whole, quite useful.

Blink does essentially the same thing for wizards. If you could have a class feature that granted blink with no miss chance for self, would you?

It's not quite as good as a caster's Spell Resistance spell... But it's 24/7, which is solid. Slightly lower SR, in exchange for "Always on".

Yeah, we can nitpick the buffs, but we can do that of anywhere. In core, it's not so easy to get LA 0 SR. Not for any real length of time.

[Cyclocone]

In regards to the speed bonus: It's an Enhancement and thus doesn't stack with items, making it practically non-existent.

Additionally, the alignment requirement is quite puzzling, and the inability to properly multiclass is downright absurd.

Also: Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Not an actual drawback, but frankly, getting this at level 17 is just insulting.

[PhoenixRivers]

But it applies to all movement modes, and is 24 hours a day. At mid levels, it's like a permanent expeditious retreat on ground.

At upper levels, it's more, and applies to flying.

If you gain other movement modes (climb, burrow, swim), it applies to those too.

That there's a bit of overlap is meh. Not so big a deal. You skip out on the boots of speed, as you get the movement and extra attacks anyway.

Note: People say that Flurry (extra attacks on a full attack) + movement (enhancement) is a weakness.

People also say that Haste, which offers identical bonuses, is one of the awesomest spells around.

Yes, the monk has mechanical weaknesses. They're not in the nitpicking of their abilities. Rather, they're a class built for survival, with contribution put in as an afterthought. They can be built to be on par with a light optimization party... But in high optimization, they fall behind.

Not from speed weaknesses. Not from flurry synergy, or SR standard actions to get buffed.

It's primarily MAD and investment requirements for AC that make the class weak.

[JellyPooga]

They can be built to be on par with a light optimization party... But in high optimization, they fall behind.

I couldn't agree more with this. I've played several Monks and all of them have contributed significantly to the game. Sure, it was lower level play where the Tier 1 classes aren't really shining yet and the games weren't "optimised" play, but in practice, the Monk isn't as bad as everyone makes out.

By comparision to other classes in a highly optimised game, yes, Monks do tend to fall by the wayside, for the reasons outlined by others, but in my experience they're about as good as any other class (by and large).

[PhoenixRivers]

...but in my experience they're about as good as any other class (by and large).

I disagree. It takes a greater level of finesse and optimization to make a monk on par with other classes.

When other people are light optimizing, you are moderate optimizing.

When they moderately optimize, you're straining.

When they go high optimization, you're using exploits... and falling behind.

When you need more work for the same result, that's a sign that the class isn't as good, mechanically.

It's not as marked as many make it out to be, but it is there.

[Ecalsneerg]

Let's go down the line here:

*d8 -as does a cleric

*3/4 BAB -as does a cleric

True, but clerics are spellcasters. Lower HP and BAB is fine, and with spells easily overcome. Monks are meant to be kung fu masters who train so hard they get supernatural powers... but evidently not so hard they fight as well as other melee-based classes.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

True, but clerics are spellcasters. Lower HP and BAB is fine, and with spells easily overcome. Monks are meant to be kung fu masters who train so hard they get supernatural powers... but evidently not so hard they fight as well as other melee-based classes.

Clerics also get Divine Power.

[Ecalsneerg]

That'd be the easily overcome with spells part :P

[Tyndmyr]

Note: People say that Flurry (extra attacks on a full attack) + movement (enhancement) is a weakness.

People also say that Haste, which offers identical bonuses, is one of the awesomest spells around.

That's because you haste the guy with full base attack bonus, so the extra attack actually hits.

[Teron]

The psychic warrior and swordsage demonstrate that a warrior class can get along just fine with 3/4 BAB and d8 hit dice, if its abilities make up for it. Unfortunately, a few limited imitations of effects that spellcasters can produce better at lower levels can't begin to compare to psionic powers or maneuvers. The unarmed damage and AC progressions that so impress new players just compensate poorly for the weapons and armour it can't use effectively -- you need to reach level 12 just to match a greatsword's basic damage, and you still don't have the 1.5 Str, 2-for-1 Power Attack, or (in core) weapon enhancements beyond an overcosted +X that takes your neck slot. As for AC, at level 20 you effectively have a non-magical chain shirt, plus Wis and no max Dex -- but good luck exploiting those "advantages" without dumping Str or Con. You also can't get armour enhancements, like the life-saving fortification.

[Starbuck_II]

That there's a bit of overlap is meh. Not so big a deal. You skip out on the boots of speed, as you get the movement and extra attacks anyway.

Note: People say that Flurry (extra attacks on a full attack) + movement (enhancement) is a weakness.

People also say that Haste, which offers identical bonuses, is one of the awesomest spells around.

Identical? Inconceivable.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Haste grants +1 to a save, hit, and AC.
Flurry has a penalty (at first till lv 9) to hit, and no save or AC bonus.

Haste buffs whole party... flurry is a personal ability.

If Monks could exchange Flurry for Haste at will: I bet 90% of Monks would take that deal.

[streakster]

I always got the impression that when the designers had gotten about 4 levels into the Monk class they ran out of ideas and just threw in whatever anyone suggested.

"Hey guys, we need some more abilities for our martial artist class."

"How about letting them speak every language in the world?"

"Ooh, ooh! And they can teleport, and never catch diseases!"

"And they resist spells! And turn into an outsider!"

[Blackfang108]

All? That's a lot, and the combination of them is the problem, with MAD being the worst for making the others worse.
They have poor AC(no armor, MAD), poor AB(3/4ths BAB, no magic weapons, MAD), poor damage(unarmed scales poorly, MAD, no magic weapons, can't PA), no ability to use special attacks(3/4ths BAB, MAD, no proficiency with most 2-handers), and no spellcasting. The monk has decent non-AC non-HP defenses, I'll admit, they just can't do anything.

Does anyone actually read feats anymore? PA specifically says it DOES work on Unarmed Strikes. Specifically.

Not that this makes the monk awesome, but it's something people NEED to stop spreading.

[kjones]

There are literally dozens of threads that discuss this very topic in endless, tedious detail. Please look up one of those rather than rehashing the same goddamn arguments over and over again.

Seriously, everything that has been said in this thread has been said before. And I predict that everything that has yet to be said in this thread has also been said before - which won't be that much, because this thread will be locked soon, just like the other one.

[Teron]

Power Attack is worthless at a 1-to-1 ratio with a typical monk's attack bonus. By "can't PA", Sstoopidtallkid probably meant "can't PA worth a damn".

[Blackfang108]

Power Attack is worthless at a 1-to-1 ratio with a typical monk's attack bonus. By "can't PA", Sstoopidtallkid probably meant "can't PA worth a damn".

Then he sould say that. Because saying they "can't PA" is misinformation at best.

It's still possible to PA with an unarmed strike.

[Tyndmyr]

Then he sould say that. Because saying they "can't PA" is misinformation at best.

It's still possible to PA with an unarmed strike.

We also need to stop spreading rumors that wizards can't melee.