(4E) Underpowered Dragons?

[Zonack]

So one of my buddies that will play on the 4E story that my other buddy is planning is already playing another 4E story with some other buddies of his.

He told us that 4E was freaking kickass, different than 3.5, not better but still worth it.
He told us how in the SECOND session being LEVEL 1 getting 250 EXP per session they killed a Dragon already O_o

Now.. Dragons are suppoed to be freaking powerful right?
Even if you are level 15 and you find a decently aged Dragon... well you sweat it, and it's cool because they are DRAGONS, they are freaking machines of destruction.
Sure eventually you level up and kick some dragon's ass, that's also normal because if the story lasts enough and you do enough stuff, you become a machine of destruction as well.

But.. level 1? Seriously? Either the dragons of 4E are seriously underpowered or the DM nerfed the dragons of his story badly.
My mate told me he used the normal rules for dragons.
Also if they killed a very very very young dragon... isn't he supposed to have ... well family? Some AGED dragons to destroy the party in their free action?

[Starbuck_II]

So one of my buddies that will play on the 4E story that my other buddy is planning is already playing another 4E story with some other buddies of his.

He told us that 4E was freaking kickass, different than 3.5, not better but still worth it.
He told us how in the SECOND session being LEVEL 1 getting 250 EXP per session they killed a Dragon already O_o

Now.. Dragons are suppoed to be freaking powerful right?
Even if you are level 15 and you find a decently aged Dragon... well you sweat it, and it's cool because they are DRAGONS, they are freaking machines of destruction.
Sure eventually you level up and kick some dragon's ass, that's also normal because if the story lasts enough and you do enough stuff, you become a machine of destruction as well.

But.. level 1? Seriously? Either the dragons of 4E are seriously underpowered or the DM nerfed the dragons of his story badly.
My mate told me he used the normal rules for dragons.
Also if they killed a very very very young dragon... isn't he supposed to have ... well family? Some AGED dragons to destroy the party in their free action?

Did he tell what age dragon?
Because I've killed wyrmlings in 3.5 at low levels (level 1 or 2 I forget).
Dragons have [don't ] usually familys: they leave them to their own devices like sea turtles do.

[Doug Lampert]

Did he tell what age dragon?
Because I've killed wyrmlings in 3.5 at low levels (level 1 or 2 I forget).
Dragons have familys usually: they leave them to their own devices like sea turtles do.

The very first, intro adventure released for 3.0, Sunless Citadel, included a dragon as one of the first possible encounters for a level 1 party of 4. It was not considered a particularly tough encounter or a boss monster or anything similar.

This is nothing different for fourth edition. Fourth ed. dragons are solos, and experience indicates taht many solos are a bit weaker than their XP value would tell you they are, whereas 3.x dragons tend to be a bit stronger than their XP value would tell you they are. But both games have dragons a level 1 party should be able to beat.

[Mando Knight]

Dragons don't usually care for their young, and youngling dragons, especially whites, are quite appropriate for low-level encounters. On the other hand, the eldest Red and Gold dragons can send demigods packing, and two of the three most powerful solos are the dragon gods Bahamut and Tiamat. In short, nothing's really changed in that respect: Whites are pathetic, Reds and Golds are menacing, and you're an idiot if you try to steal from that grey-cloaked old man with the canaries.

[bosssmiley]

So one of my buddies that will play on the 4E story that my other buddy is planning is already playing another 4E story with some other buddies of his.

He told us that 4E was freaking kickass, different than 3.5, not better but still worth it.
He told us how in the SECOND session being LEVEL 1 getting 250 EXP per session they killed a Dragon already O_o

Pshaw! That was no dragon. It was a fire gecko, or a drake (drake:dragon::toy poodle:mastiff) or something.

Proper dragons announce their arrival by torching a village or two, fragging the local lord by dropping his keep on him, then settling down to poison the local area into a draconic desolation and manage their loot-and-virgins protection racket.

If you see baby dragons, you should worry about where Ma is...

[Thajocoth]

Black Dragon Wyrmling - Level 2 Elite (Elite means as powerful as 2 standard monsters of the same level)
Young Black Dragon - Level 4 Solo (Solo means as powerful as 5 standard monsters of the same level)
Adult Black Dragon - Level 11 Solo
Elder Black Dragon - Level 18 Solo
Ancient Black Dragon - Level 26 Solo

[Anonomuss]

My third level party (Paladin, Artificer, Wizard, Ranger and Avenger), have to date (Having just turned third level after the last session) killed two dragons.

One was a blue dragon hatchling, just hatched. They came damn close to killing it's brood brother also, but it fled:

Spoiler

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I've a plan to bring it back as a two-headed blue dragon, each head retaining the soul of one of the two hatchlings.

A level later, they took on a young white dragon, who they managed to kill. I was disappointed to be honest as none of the players even made it to the negatives... and the dragon wasn't alone. They were ecstatic to do so however, and the vicious fullblade wielding paladin critting (for 56 damage or so, at level 2.) on a daily, didn't exactly hurt.

[Talyn]

Where'd you get the stats for the wyrmlings? They aren't in the Monster's Manual or MM2, as far as I remember.

[hamishspence]

Draconomicon 4E has them.

[Mando Knight]

Black Dragon Wyrmling - Level 2 Elite (Elite means as powerful as 2 standard monsters of the same level)
Young Black Dragon - Level 4 Solo (Solo means as powerful as 5 standard monsters of the same level)
Adult Black Dragon - Level 11 Solo
Elder Black Dragon - Level 18 Solo
Ancient Black Dragon - Level 26 Solo

Black Dragons, however, are nasty to fight without area attacks, or daze/stun powers.

[Vic_Sage]

Black Dragons, however, are nasty to fight without area attacks, or daze/stun powers.

My players learned this the hard way. Didn't help the dragon had a Ghost harassing the Cleric and a Choker choking the crap out of the Wizard.

[Mando Knight]

My players learned this the hard way. Didn't help the dragon had a Ghost harassing the Cleric and a Choker choking the crap out of the Wizard.

Yep. A Black, though rather low-leveled compared to Reds, Golds, Silvers, etc., can use the cloud of darkness power combined with a high Stealth modifier, hovering flight, and reach to remain alive by attacking, maintaining the cloud, and flying two spaces for a stealth check.

[DiscipleofBob]

Underpowered Dragons?

You haven't played in my games where dragons are on the same level as primordials and gods.

In fact, in my setting, gods fear the dragons. Granted, this is more due to story fluff than anything else, but dragons are always very scary.

[FoE]

The Level 1 Kobold Hall adventure in the DMG actually ends with a battle against a white dragon. Granted, white dragons are the weakest overall and this was a young dragon, but it's still a frickin' dragon.

[Vic_Sage]

Yep. A Black, though rather low-leveled compared to Reds, Golds, Silvers, etc., can use the cloud of darkness power combined with a high Stealth modifier, hovering flight, and reach to remain alive by attacking, maintaining the cloud, and flying two spaces for a stealth check.

That Cloud of Darkness combined with Chokers is mean. Especially when the Cleric has 8 str .

[nyjastul69]

The Level 1 Kobold Hall adventure in the DMG actually ends with a battle against a white dragon. Granted, white dragons are the weakest overall and this was a young dragon, but it's still a frickin' dragon.

I finished DMing this 'scenario' just last night. It resulted in 1 PC death. Granted there were only 4 PC's in the party but it's a difficult encounter for a 1st lvl group. I removed 1 of the dragons AP's and dropped its hp's by 32. I kept rolling well on it's breath weapon recharge roll, 7 out of 9 or 10 times. It basically devastated the party.

[The New Bruceski]

We had a similar nasty brush with a black dragon. Fought it in a barn and our best solution was to burn the barn down. Still left us fighting it in the open area nearby, but at least it couldn't blind us and sit in the loft waiting for someone to climb up.

[Starbuck_II]

I finished DMing this 'scenario' just last night. It resulted in 1 PC death. Granted there were only 4 PC's in the party but it's a difficult encounter for a 1st lvl group. I removed 1 of the dragons AP's and dropped its hp's by 32. I kept rolling well on it's breath weapon recharge roll, 7 out of 9 or 10 times. It basically devastated the party.

Yeah, as a merciful DM I didn't breath twice when I could have to not kill the party when I played (BTW they were level 2).

[nyjastul69]

I held its BW twice. I'm generally a player friendly DM except I was rolling my dice in the open and they were on fire.

[Kurald Galain]

He told us how in the SECOND session being LEVEL 1 getting 250 EXP per session they killed a Dragon already O_o

Been there, done that. Yes, this is a design feature: a level-1 character is supposed to be badass and epic enough to take down a dragon, over the course of a normal adventuring day. And indeed, the average party of normal level-1 characters should have little trouble killing a dragon.

[Zonack]

Been there, done that. Yes, this is a design feature: a level-1 character is supposed to be badass and epic enough to take down a dragon, over the course of a normal adventuring day. And indeed, the average party of normal level-1 characters should have little trouble killing a dragon.

That's kinda lame, I am all for being powerful, fighting beasts, dragons, demons, gods etc.
But at level 1 it's just lame.
Even if in 4E you are already a ''hero'' it says that you fight goblins, bandits, not dragons and demons.

[nightwyrm]

That's kinda lame, I am all for being powerful, fighting beasts, dragons, demons, gods etc.
But at level 1 it's just lame.
Even if in 4E you are already a ''hero'' it says that you fight goblins, bandits, not dragons and demons.

Yeah, those uppity 1st levels. They should be farming rats and slimes for XP instead of fighting cool things like dragons and demons.

[tcrudisi]

That's kinda lame, I am all for being powerful, fighting beasts, dragons, demons, gods etc.
But at level 1 it's just lame.
Even if in 4E you are already a ''hero'' it says that you fight goblins, bandits, not dragons and demons.

I really worry that you are being biased. I can remember fighting dragons at level 1 in D&D 3.5. Remember wyrmlings? Black CR 3, Blue CR 3, Green CR 3, Red CR 4, and White CR 2.

In fact, I would argue that Dragons were easier to kill in 3.5 where a level 1 Fighter can take on a wyrmling dragon without any assistance (and yeah, I did).

Really, your friend probably just said "dragon" ... because, ya know, that sounds cooler. We are all guilty of embellishing stories. It sounds more exciting to say, "We killed a dragon at level 1" than it does to say, "We killed a baby dragon." In my opinion, dragons are tougher in 4e.

[Hashmir]

Yeah, I'm not sure I really see the problem. Baby dragons are pretty weak, but a decent challenge for a group of fairly experienced and particularly capable heroes -- which is where you start at level 1.

For comparison, consider a typical level 1 quest: Clearing a kobold hideout for the local authorities. This isn't particularly difficult, as you know if you've done it. However, these kobolds are clearly not "weak" in the grand scheme of things; if it was easy, then the town wouldn't need you to do it, now would they?

So it is clear that even level 1 encounters, while not always flashy, are still far more than a routine engagement for the regular folk. At the very least, they wouldn't be able to pull it off without taking casualties, unlike you -- your band of four people clears out the whole place without a single loss! Is it then so hard to believe that these extraordinarily capable adventurers might be able to take on a very young dragon?

[Sir_Elderberry]

Meh, makes sense to me. Baby snakes are easier to kill than regular snakes. Baby dragons are easier to kill than regular ones.

[Zonack]

Yeah, those uppity 1st levels. They should be farming rats and slimes for XP instead of fighting cool things like dragons and demons.

Because the MM only has those 4 monsters right?

There are many others monsters to fight, for me it's not good, it's easy, and if you encounter a baby dragon, look around for their old mother around.
At least for that's how I like it.
No need for comments like that.

[Hashmir]

There are many others monsters to fight, for me it's not good, it's easy, and if you encounter a baby dragon, look around for their old mother around.
At least for that's how I like it.

Yeah, but you didn't make a thread to say, "Hey, my friend fought a baby dragon at level 1. In my games, I prefer that dragons only show up for powerful, climactic fights at high levels."

You made a thread to say, "Hey, my friend fought a baby dragon at level 1. 4th Edition shouldn't allow you to do that, and DMs should only create worlds where weak dragons are accompanied by extremely powerful dragons at all times."

In light of this, it is entirely appropriate for someone to accuse you of dictating what fun things 1st-level parties can and cannot fight.

[Zonack]

Yeah, but you didn't make a thread to say, "Hey, my friend fought a baby dragon at level 1. In my games, I prefer that dragons only show up for powerful, climactic fights at high levels."

You made a thread to say, "Hey, my friend fought a baby dragon at level 1. 4th Edition shouldn't allow you to do that, and DMs should only create worlds where weak dragons are accompanied by extremely powerful dragons at all times."

In light of this, it is entirely appropriate for someone to accuse you of dictating what fun things 1st-level parties can and cannot fight.

People can kill dragons with a dagger while on rags, I don't care as long as they have fun, I am just suprised to see this.

[Decoy Lockbox]

I've been playing a paladin in a 4e game for about a year. The only battle that we've ever lost was against a blue dragon a few levels higher than us (I think we were lvl 8 or 9 at the time). Well, I shouldn't say we lost, but we did end up fleeing from it's lair. Our objective was to rescue my character's sister, which we achieved. We really wanted the dragon's hoard, but that will have to wait for another time. Come to think of it, we are level 11 now, may bye its time to go back for vengeance!

[Nightson]

The only defeat my players ever suffered was at the hands of a green dragon wyrmling and it's snaketongue cultist followers. They jumped into the sewers to try and escape, the green dragon killed two of them and left a third at 1 hp.